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Author Topic:   Thou Shalts and Thou Shalnts
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 1 of 204 (248161)
10-02-2005 11:13 AM


Faith & Belief Topic, I'm sure. Don't know how much of this is "debatable" but it might make an interesting discussion.
Seems to me that the judeo/christian religion is awfully full of rules. (I'm sure lots of other religions are too, but I'm not nearly as familiar).
I generally think you can break down the rules into two catagories:
Thou Shall Nots -
No Killing
No Stealing
No Worshiping Cows
etc.
and the Thou Shalls -
Love thy neighbor
Honor thy Mother and Father
etc.
I'm sure there are people here who are far more versed (lol pun intended) in the bible to help compile a list of sorts.
My main point of conversation here is this -
It seems that the Thou Shall Nots are very well defined. You definitely know if you are violating it. However, the Thou Shalls are in a big old gray area.
Is this the nature of good and evil? Is this because so many of the Nots come from the Old Testament and so many of the Shalls come from the New? Is it that knowing how to do the right thing is often much harder than knowing how to do the wrong thing?
Discuss.

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 2 of 204 (248172)
10-02-2005 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
10-02-2005 11:13 AM


It seems that the Thou Shall Nots are very well defined. You definitely know if you are violating it. However, the Thou Shalls are in a big old gray area.
If the "Thou Shalls" were well defined, then they would look like nagging. And nobody want's a nagging God.
The "Thou Shalt Nots" are not really all that well defined either. For example, it is often stated as "Thou shalt not commit murder" rather than "Thou shalt not kill". This allows all kinds of equivocation. For example, it allows people to convince themselves that tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis being killed is not murder, but is merely an unfortunate side effect of war.
Sad to say, but experience seems to show that the two primary moral principles are:
Might makes right.
You scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 3 of 204 (248185)
10-02-2005 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
10-02-2005 11:13 AM


Random thoughts on the law
Nuggin writes:
It seems that the Thou Shall Nots are very well defined. You definitely know if you are violating it.
I recently reread the book of Leviticus. It occured to me that it sounded a lot like: "Don't do A, but if B happens then you have to do C - but every second Thursday, if the sun is shining, do D - unless E or F and then only if G...."
I got the distinct impression that the law was designed to be impossible to obey perfectly.
Hmm... a written law with a built-in requirement for a priestly caste to interpret it. Any chance of an ulterior motive there?
However, the Thou Shalls are in a big old gray area.
Professing Christians are fond of the we-are-not-under-the-law-because-Jesus-fulfilled-the-law gambit. That excuses them from dietary laws and yet allows them to discriminate against homosexuals, etc. (Jesus has done wonders for cherry-picker sales.)
I would have thought that "Love thy neighbour as thyself" was a pretty straight-forward "thou shalt". Unfortunately, for many professing Christians, it does seem to be a gray area.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 204 (248189)
10-02-2005 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
10-02-2005 11:13 AM


knowing how to do the right thing is often much harder
knowing how to do the right thing is often much harder than knowing how to do the wrong thing
Absolutely.
I think this is important to discuss because IMHO it's the key point of all of the Judaic religions as well as almost all of the different religions and moral systems out there.
IMHO, 99.999% of all Christians totally misunderstand that message as laid out in the Bible. Yet it is explicit from the very beginnings right through to the end. The story in Genesis of Adam & Eve and the Garden of Eden is not one of a Fall, but of establishing the fact that there are good and bad choices and that we have a responsibility to TRY to make good choices.
That's a really simple statement, GOD says "You know right from wrong!" It's then left up to the individuals to act on that knowledge.
But then there are the rules, and as you say, the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, is filled with them. Society, like every bureaucracy, likes specifics over generalities any day. It was no different 3000 years ago than it is today.
So they created RULES. Unfortunately, they also noticed that RULES don't have anything to do with what is RIGHT or WRONG. Right and wrong can only be determined within context.
That led to discussions of what the rules really meant. What is work on the sabbath? What makes a contract valid? What is murder?
Those questions are reflected in the Talmud, a body of work many, many times larger than the Bible. Even there no answer is found, there is support for almost every point of view.
Enter Jesus and the NT.
The NT is an attempt to move back towards the original concept. Jesus message is an enforcement of the original message. It is an attempt to reduce all the rules to their basics, "Love GOD and Love others as you Love yourself". It is an attempt to return right and wrong to individual responsibility, but with one big difference.
The message of Christianity is "Just try. God knows you probably won't get it right. He doesn't really expect you to. But She does expect you to try to do what's right."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 5 of 204 (250580)
10-10-2005 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
10-02-2005 11:13 AM


2 rules
Love God with all your heart mind and soul, and,
Love others as you love yourself.
Then the Holy Spirit lets you know when you are doing wrong, you don't need a Chrsitian to tell when you are doing wrong or right.
Then God will judge you when you die, and probably just the way you judged others and then some. But I believe its relative to the person, not a set of rules. I hope he judges us based on what we know. If we don't know God, then how can we love him?

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 6 of 204 (251039)
10-12-2005 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by ringo
10-02-2005 12:33 PM


Re: Random thoughts on the law
Ringo writes:
I got the distinct impression that the law was designed to be impossible to obey perfectly.
Halleujah. He's seen the light!
Well almost... it wasn't that the law was designed to be impossible for us to obey. It is that we are unable to obey it perfectly. The problem is in us...not the law. Whatever, the point being...
The law is there to condemn you. It's sole purpose is to make you feel condemned. Should you ever reach that point, then the law will have done exactly what it's supposed to do.
That's when things get...er....interesting
This message has been edited by iano, 12-Oct-2005 10:21 AM

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 42 by ringo, posted 10-13-2005 1:41 PM iano has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 7 of 204 (251041)
10-12-2005 5:47 AM


So confusing...
The Bible says (I'm paraphrasing it):
1. "Homosexuals are bad."
2. "Love thy neighbour (but not his wife)."
No wonder those Bible-thumpers are confused.

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

Replies to this message:
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ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5162 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 8 of 204 (251043)
10-12-2005 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Parasomnium
10-12-2005 5:47 AM


Re: So confusing...
dang, you made my comment before I could. ( especially the bracketed comment in #2)
This message has been edited by ohnhai, 12-10-2005 09:41 PM

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 9 of 204 (251047)
10-12-2005 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Parasomnium
10-12-2005 5:47 AM


Re: So confusing...
parsomnium writes:
The Bible says (I'm paraphrasing it): 1. "Homosexuals are bad."
Thats not paraphrasing, that picking and choosing to suit your own ends. The Bible says (and I'm not paraphrasing it) 1:" All have sinned". To paraphrase: "Everyone is bad...not just homosexuals"

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 10 of 204 (251048)
10-12-2005 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by ohnhai
10-12-2005 6:40 AM


Re: So confusing...
parsomnium writes:
2. "Love thy neighbour (but not his wife)."
Pars' Paraphrasing got it wrong here too. The Bible says love your neighbour and his wife... and everybody else. Biblical loving is not the same as adulterous 'loving'.

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 11 of 204 (251051)
10-12-2005 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by iano
10-12-2005 6:59 AM


Re: So confusing...
Ian, does the Bible have anything to say about ... humour?

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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 12 of 204 (251056)
10-12-2005 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
10-02-2005 12:51 PM


Re: knowing how to do the right thing is often much harder
Jar writes:
The message of Christianity is "Just try. God knows you probably won't get it right. He doesn't really expect you to. But She does expect you to try to do what's right."
As I've asked elsewhere Jar, where is this theory backed up in the Bible. I've pointed out already that the words "try" and "trying" don't appear in connection with salvation/damnation in the NT.
It seems 'try' is a conclusion drawn out by your own rationality - not by the bibles rationale.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 13 of 204 (251057)
10-12-2005 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Parasomnium
10-12-2005 7:08 AM


Re: So confusing...
Funnily enough Parsomnium...it doesn't.

This message is a reply to:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 14 of 204 (251063)
10-12-2005 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by iano
10-12-2005 7:39 AM


Humour...
I guess you're right, Ian.
I just googled the string "The Bible on humor". Try it, the result is quite shocking. (Don't forget the quotes and spell 'humor' the American way.)
I've also tried the British spelling ("The Bible on humour") and the result is just as telling, albeit also ironically funny if you click on the second result ("Syllabus 1120").
This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 12-Oct-2005 01:55 PM

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. - Richard Dawkins

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 15 of 204 (251100)
10-12-2005 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Nuggin
10-02-2005 11:13 AM


613 Mitzvot (Commandments)
Judaism does have their 613 commandments divided into 248 positive and 365 negative.
Number 7: To Love God, specifically Deut 6:5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
and
the Golden Rule or You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (Mark 12:31) were already a part of Jewish teachings.
IMO Jesus was trying, as jar stated, to get people back to the basic purpose of the rules.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
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