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Author Topic:   The War On Terror Will End When.........
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 77 (462855)
04-09-2008 11:57 PM


Two Emerging Events
1. All nations become fundamentalist Muslim and Islam prevails to dominate the world as per the Quran and the Haddith. These two verses are two of many cited here. I see this likelihood also depicted in the OT prophesies, particularly Ezekiel 37-39. I also see it emerging in current events.
Perpetual War
8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah(disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allh Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allh), then certainly, Allh is All-Seer of what they do.
9:29. Fight against those
who (1) believe not in Allh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor
forbid that which has been forbidden by Allh and His Messenger
(4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e.
Islm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
2. Armageddon becomes a reality when the 2nd advent of messiah Jesus prevails to destroy the armies of the world and establish messianic world kingdom as prophesied.
Zechariah 14:1-16 ASV {For a reading of the entire chapter for more on this, click the link.}
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, a day of Jehovah cometh, when thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zechariah 14:3 Then shall Jehovah go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the mount of Olives shall be cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, `and there shall be' a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee by the valley of my mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azel; yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and Jehovah my God shall come, and all the holy ones with thee.
Zechariah 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that there shall not be light; the bright ones shall withdraw themselves:
Zechariah 14:7 but it shall be one day which is known unto Jehovah; not day, and not night; but it shall come to pass, that at evening time there shall be light.
Zechariah 14:8 And it shall come to pass in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zechariah 14:9 And Jehovah shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall Jehovah be one, and his name one.
Zechariah 14:10 All the land shall be made like the Arabah, from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; and she shall be lifted up, and shall dwell in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel unto the king's wine-presses.
Zechariah 14:11 And men shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more curse; but Jerusalem shall dwell safely.
Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith Jehovah will smite all the peoples that have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their sockets, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Zechariah 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from Jehovah shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor.
Zechariah 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the nations round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
Zechariah 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in those camps, as that plague.
Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
For NT corroborating reference to this phenomonal event see
Revelation 16 ASV (Again, for full context click link)
Revelation 16:14 for they are spirits of demons, working signs; which go forth unto the kings of the whole world, to gather them together unto the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
Revelation 16:15 (Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.)
Revelation 16:16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.
So get used to war, my friends. There is no other way this war on terror can possibly be won and end. This thread is intended to discuss and debate my POV and/or to offer other POVs about possible alternatives.
Comments and information relative to the topic may include aspects of religion but should not become so much so that we loose our way.
I'm not sure where this should go.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Provide Subtitle

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 04-10-2008 12:26 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 8 by Rahvin, posted 04-10-2008 7:36 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 9 by Otto Tellick, posted 04-11-2008 1:20 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 11 by Phat, posted 04-11-2008 11:29 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 76 by petrophysics1, posted 05-11-2008 7:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 77 (462861)
04-10-2008 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
04-09-2008 11:57 PM


Where does it go?
I'm afraid you'll have to figure out where it goes. Not being able to do so might hint that it isn't a well formed OP.
You say:
"...may include aspects of religion but should not become so much so that we loose our way."
But all I see in the post is religious commentary. With this start how can it be anything but religious?
If you think you want to talk about the war on terror and that it has a religious basis then this might fit into "Social Issues and Creation/Evolution". I take it that your view is that current terrorism is only religious based. You might want to state that explicitly since many commentators disagree with that.
If you want a pure discussion of the so-called "war on terror" then it might but ok in the coffee shop.
If you leave the religious commentary then it seems it is a "The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy" topic. Which you have run from before. Will you actually deal with it this time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 04-09-2008 11:57 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Buzsaw, posted 04-10-2008 9:07 AM AdminNosy has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 77 (462877)
04-10-2008 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNosy
04-10-2008 12:26 AM


Re: Where does it go?
Since I'd like to keep it as is the Free For All would be fine with me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 04-10-2008 12:26 AM AdminNosy has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 77 (462891)
04-10-2008 10:53 AM


Free For All Request
If it is permissible for me to put this thread in Free For All I request that this thread be closed by an administrator in order that I may do so. Thanks

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by AdminNosy, posted 04-10-2008 11:41 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 5 of 77 (462894)
04-10-2008 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Buzsaw
04-10-2008 10:53 AM


Re: Free For All Request -- Percy/Admin review please
That forum is not for science or religion topics. (as I read it)
As it is written the OP is only religious in nature so it can't be a free for all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Buzsaw, posted 04-10-2008 10:53 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Buzsaw, posted 04-10-2008 11:53 AM AdminNosy has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 77 (462898)
04-10-2008 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by AdminNosy
04-10-2008 11:41 AM


Re: Free For All Request -- Percy/Admin review please
I prefer Social and Religious Issues. I didn't think of that before. If not, perhaps Faith and Belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by AdminNosy, posted 04-10-2008 11:41 AM AdminNosy has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 7 of 77 (462937)
04-10-2008 2:35 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 8 of 77 (462954)
04-10-2008 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
04-09-2008 11:57 PM


Re: Two Emerging Events
So get used to war, my friends. There is no other way this war on terror can possibly be won and end. This thread is intended to discuss and debate my POV and/or to offer other POVs about possible alternatives.
Or the final battle between the gods and giants begins and Ragnarok consumes the world.
Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster could stretch forth his noodly appendage and undo what he made last Thursday in time to start over next week.
Are you really so silly as to insist that the only way Islamic terrorism will stop is by the end-times myths of one of the two religions coming true? How ridiculous.
If we assume that the "War on Terror" can only end via fulfillment of an end times prophesy, we could also say that any end-times prophesies from any religion could also end it.
Your two options are not the only possibilities, Buz. From a more rational side, the "War on Terror" can end whenever the United States decides to end it, much like the "War on Drugs" or any of the other failed policies of the past. If you refer to Islamic terrorism in its entirety and not the actual "War on Terror," that too can end as suicidal anti-Western philosophies lose popularity. Education, a lack of meaningful successes, tyrannical theocratic laws, and simple attrition are already weakening Islamic extremism in Iraq, where recent reports have suggested the youth of Iraq are turning away from Islam entirely due to the violence the extremists bring - and I don't just mean IEDs.
This is not the first religious war the world has seen, Buz, and we didn't need Armageddon to stop those, either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 04-09-2008 11:57 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Buzsaw, posted 04-11-2008 9:22 AM Rahvin has replied
 Message 20 by Rrhain, posted 04-12-2008 7:05 AM Rahvin has replied

  
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2331 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 9 of 77 (462978)
04-11-2008 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
04-09-2008 11:57 PM


Re: Two Emerging Events
Buzsaw writes:
... I also see it emerging in current events...
I'm sure you are not alone. Others, no doubt, have also seen fulfillment of these prophecies emerging in "current events", such as the Crusades of the Middle Ages, the great plague that ensued from those battles, the Napoleanic wars, both World Wars, and any number of other significantly worrisome calamities suffered by those who have tried to understand these passages. I suppose there's something in these "prophecies" for all "attentive" readers in all epochs -- these visions have been equally "useful", "pertinent" and "accurately predictive" in all periods since they were first written down... which is to say, not much at all, really.
IMHO, it is quite rare (and thankfully so) that anyone can read these texts and detect anything coherent or comprehensible, let alone anything that is specifically related or relevant to "current" events, whether today or at any time. Even if you are determined to work up a sweat with interpretive gymnastics to link this stuff to our day-to-day lives, it seems you still need to be selective, leaving out portions of text that are simply too erratic (and downright goofy) to fit in with anything.
And what's the point of all that anyway? What sorts of "predictions" are really being made? What impact should they actually have on choices we make? If the next leader of the U.S. (and/or France, Russia, Israel, Egypt, Britain, China, ...) were to figure out a viable strategy for negotiating peace in all the Middle East conflicts, leading to cooperative prosperity and children playing in local parks without fear of violence and so on, would you say, on the basis of these prophetic passages you're struggling over, that any such plan should be opposed, because it goes against the Will Of God? That would be really sick, to say nothing of seeming quite un-Christian.

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 04-09-2008 11:57 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 77 (462994)
04-11-2008 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Rahvin
04-10-2008 7:36 PM


Re: Two Emerging Events
Rahven writes:
Your two options are not the only possibilities, Buz. From a more rational side, the "War on Terror" can end whenever the United States decides to end it, much like the "War on Drugs" or any of the other failed policies of the past. If you refer to Islamic terrorism in its entirety and not the actual "War on Terror," that too can end as suicidal anti-Western philosophies lose popularity. Education, a lack of meaningful successes, tyrannical theocratic laws, and simple attrition are already weakening Islamic extremism in Iraq, where recent reports have suggested the youth of Iraq are turning away from Islam entirely due to the violence the extremists bring - and I don't just mean IEDs.
Rahvin, did you even read the official Islamic doctrinal statements which I've cited from the holy books from which Islamic doctrine is determined and which is being reflected in modern fundamentalist Islamic nations by their leaders and clerics? These official doctrines from Mohammed and his successors which are being practiced and openly advocated by the governments of Sudan, Iran, the PLO and which are being being funded by oil rich Saudi Arabians etc are the forces which are infiltrating the Western nations in Europe, SA and the US.
In spite of some disgruntled youth which you mentioned, the advancement of militant Islam is happening globally.
Please give just one possible specific alternative end to the war on terror which you could suggest other than what I have stated? Let's hear it. Keep in mind as you try to come up with an alternative that the children in the PLO elementary schools and elsewhere are taught that Jihad, including suicide missions by them is a noble and rewarding act. There are multiple thousands of these bombers waiting their turn and opportunity to act for Allah wherever they are needed.
Are you denying that the official Islamic position globally is to force the world to be subjected to Allah and Islam both past and present?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Rahvin, posted 04-10-2008 7:36 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by dwise1, posted 04-11-2008 3:34 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 16 by Rahvin, posted 04-11-2008 9:16 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 11 of 77 (463013)
04-11-2008 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
04-09-2008 11:57 PM


Re: Two Emerging Even
I have been watching a thorough documentary on the behind the scenses activities in Iraq. It is a P.B.S. Documentary titled Bush's War. Regardless of your political ideology, its a well done expose on the challenges in the Muslim world.

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 12 of 77 (463048)
04-11-2008 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Buzsaw
04-11-2008 9:22 AM


Re: Two Emerging Events
Please read what Rahvin wrote (bolds inserted by me):
Rahvin writes:
Education, a lack of meaningful successes, tyrannical theocratic laws, and simple attrition are already weakening Islamic extremism in Iraq, where recent reports have suggested the youth of Iraq are turning away from Islam entirely due to the violence the extremists bring - and I don't just mean IEDs.
Among those who do not have to live every day with the consequences of militant Islam, that theology may be spreading. But among those who know all too well what it has wrought for them and their families, it is losing popularity.
Your two scenarios of Muslims hell-bound to convert all the world to Islam and of Christians hell-bound to convert all the world to Christianity are identical in that they are two self-fulfilling prophesies of destruction. The first time that Bush was "elected" our RPC (RPs are chaplains' aides) asked me a question regarding what bearing Bush's religious beliefs should have and I replied that in general they should not, but if those beliefs include any role the US would have in stearing the world to the End Times and Armageddon, then the prospect that he would turn those beliefs into self-fulfilling prophesy was something that I found very frightening. I had specifically referred to his "having his finger on the button", but instead he has succeeded in doing much more damage.
The alternative is for reason to prevail. But judging from teen4christ's remarks (based on his own religious upbringing) about the inability of fervently religious to even perceive reality), it does appear that we are doomed to destruction. Not because those prophesies have any real merit, but rather because there are so many believers zealously working to fulfill them.

{When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)
Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.
(from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)
Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.
(Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles)
Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)

This message is a reply to:
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Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 13 of 77 (463061)
04-11-2008 7:03 PM


Hi Buz,
Terrorism and wars will end if and when mankind grows up and decides to stop behaving like an out-of-control savage and finds means other than sectarian violence or appeals to the gods to settle his disputes. In the current era, I suspect attrition and the realization that such acts have not achieved any results will cause a lack of popular support in these areas and will eventually create a reluctance on the part of these groups to go this route, given the lack of any long term success and the calamity that these acts bring to their home societies.
It is unfortunate to hear that there are those who live in the twenty-first century who truly believe the only resolution will come when Poseidon releases the Kraken on the Mediterranean to create a giant tidal wave that destroys the enemy.
Religion can be used us a means to bring about positive changes to society, but unfortunately it is primarily used as an excuse to create divisions or is used as a call to inaction as we wait for a better place and time. It is an appeal to superstition that has fed this irrational delusion that we are powerless over our density. This has made the problems even worse and has made the possibility of a successful resolution to our social ills even more difficult. The sad thing is, most don't see the insanity of this outlook and probably never will. The main concern for most is only with the future and securing an equitable position in the hereafter. Religions have abandoned the present in exchange for personal compensation in an existence that cannot even be seen.
Hope for an afterlife and belief in Divine providence may bring comfort to humanity, but when you start letting such beliefs determine your outlook for the future -- the one that exists 'here' -- this is where the problem starts. Do you really think this is what God had in mind? "I set them above the works of thy hands, gave them a brain and intellect, and this is the best they can do thousands of years later? Where did I go wrong?"
Perhaps a more appropriate apocalyptic verse would be:
" And the Lord saweth the continuing ignorance and bizarre silliness which man clung to and how in his folly, the supposed noblest and loftiest of creatures behaveth much worse than wild gorillas set free inside the tent of Jethrow. And the Lord, fearing for the rest of his creation, put man into a deep sleep and replaceth his brain with fresh figs harvested from the trees of Midian"

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 04-11-2008 7:36 PM Grizz has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 77 (463064)
04-11-2008 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Grizz
04-11-2008 7:03 PM


Determination Of Future Outlook
Grizz writes:
Hope for an afterlife and belief in Divine providence may bring comfort to humanity, but when you start letting such beliefs determine your outlook for the future -- the one that exists 'here' -- this is where the problem starts. Do you really think this is what God had in mind? "I set them above the works of thy hands, gave them a brain and intellect, and this is the best they can do thousands of years later? Where did I go wrong?"
Hi Grizz. You say ".....letting such beliefs determine your outlook....." The beliefs which determine my outlook are not so much about my beliefs as they are about my observations of the world we are in. I look at the real present world and what's going on an I look at the Islamic prophet's declarations and I see he, his successors and the majority of modern Islamic heads of state and clerics really believe and practice what the prophet himself practiced and advocated, i.e. world subjection to Islam by violence.
Then I read the Biblical prophecies for the latter days about the nations mentioned in the prophecies including Israel and the whole Middle East which opposes her along with Northern Africa and Russia. I see the nations gathering to battle in the region as the prophecies say to the nation which has been regathered from the nations as prophesied and I go figure. I see no way out of the war on terror but these two which I've stated.
You can even forget the Biblical part and go with the Islamic agenda we are observing.
As yet nobody has come up with a specific alternative (abe: to ending the war on terror.) I'm still waiting for that here. All I'm getting is if only this or if only that, etc.
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.
Edited by Buzsaw, : remove a word

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Grizz, posted 04-11-2008 7:03 PM Grizz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Grizz, posted 04-11-2008 8:23 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 15 of 77 (463069)
04-11-2008 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Buzsaw
04-11-2008 7:36 PM


Re: Determination Of Future Outlook
You can even forget the Biblical part and go with the Islamic agenda we are observing.
As yet nobody has come up with a specific alternative. I'm still waiting for that here.
Buz Buz Buz,
I supplied an alternative -- mankind stops behaving like an out-of-control savage and stops appealing to the gods to clean up all the messes we have made.
Do you agree God gave us a brain for a reason? I suggest it's time we started using it and stop behaving like children. Our destiny is in our own hands. Judeo-Christian belief holds that God gave us dominion over the Earth, correct? We have to lie down in the bed that we make.
I will quote Patton here: "The natural state of man is war. Peace is just a preparation for that endeavor." It doesn't have to be this way, it's the way we choose to live. I am not naive enough to believe we will ever end violence or conflict, but I do know appealing to the rational faculties we possess has a much better chance of success than letting our emotions, fears, and prejudices dominate our existence. For starters, we can retain our grasp on reality -- Poseidon is not going to release the Kraken to destroy our enemies.
Man does not have to dump the belief in a divine - he just needs to stop acting like a loon and start using his head, before it truly is too late. We have to realize this is our bed we have made and we are responsible for replacing the dirty sheets.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 04-11-2008 7:36 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 04-11-2008 10:23 PM Grizz has replied

  
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