HISTORY BUFFS, COME HELP ME WITH JESUS!

So, I was in a debate again with my mom's pastor, you may remember some things that Brian helped me with (or not, it wasn't really memorable). The point is he pointed me at this article:http://www.equip.org/free/DB109.htmAlthough the article felt like he was dodging doing real work, I read it anyway. I can't say for sure, but it doesn't 'feel' right. I don't have the facts to know for sure, but so much of it feels like way to much work on the christuan side to discredit some of what they call "liberal beliefs." I can't come up with specifics, and it seems to me that they are only clarifying things that are glossed-over as similarities, and totally ignoring so many legitimate points! Anyone else who's done some reading on the subject have any ideas? Specifics?
-Brad

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

It's really a much simpler issue than people make it.......the earliest writings of the Christian church OR mystery religion are the epistles........and the epistles are what all church theology is based on. Therefore, we know Christian theology predates the mystery religions, and we can assume that any similarities between the mystery religions and Christianity are due to the influence of of Christian theology on pagans, and not vice versa.Pointing out the similarities between pagan cults and Christianity and claiming that it's somehow proof that these cults are what Christianity was based on is analogous to pointing out similarities between Islam and Judaism and asserting that Judaism was obviously based on Islam........that's an exaggeration, because these cults and Christianity arose almost contemporaneously whereas Islam and Judaism were seperated by thousands of years, but you get my point; the similarity between ancient pagan cults and Christianity is no proof at all that Christianity arose from pagan cults. It's simply a possibility. However, when you consider the exclusivist nature of Christianity (meaning the rejection of all competing, pagan theology), the INclusivist nature of ancient Roman cults (meaning they were very New Agey in the way they easily incorporated new beliefs into pre-existing ones) and the fact that BY FAR the earliest theology of either is expressed in church canon (the epistles), it leads you to the logical conclusion that Christianity influenced these cults and not vice versa.

It wasn't until the adoption of Christianity by Constantine that the theology got nailed down and linked to a powerful central authority. Given that there was alot of variation in beliefs in the first 3 centuries C.E. and some of the themes of the mystery religion certainly are older than Christianity I'd say it's difficult to tell with accuracy who influenced what. I think the Church didn't become fully exclusivist until then.Certainly a lot of stories and accounts of virgin births (the earth is a mother that bears life without a father) and the death and rebirth of a god (the crop cycle) was something that had a deep appeal for people. A topic like this would requires some heavy scholarship as it is a bit obscure. The JesusMysteries Yahoo Group has posters who argue deeply on that topic. That might be a place to find some references.lfen

You're right.......which is why I'm not Catholic........I fail to see the relevance here. Not on major points of theology, with the exception of the Gnostics......and we know that the earliest Christian writings were just that, so Gnosticism obviously developed out of Christianity and not vice versa. Proof? It's a Judaic religion........I'd say it was pretty exclusivist from day 1. I don't recall any pre-Christian resurrection story, and the virgin birth was prophecied by Jewish prophets.......so it was certainly not pagan in origin.

Judaism is at the extreme end of exclusive but that doesn't mean there aren't influences incorporated in it from other cultures and even stories adopted from other cultures for the Bible, such as Noah and the Flood.It's getting late so all I'll do now is post a link to a site that reviews with dates a select number of stories many predating Christianity.http://home.earthlink.net/...istianOrigins/PaganChrists.htmlI'm not going to argue that these were developed into Christianity but I don't think you can state they were modeled on Christianity either. I don't see how any clear cut path of developement can be traced. The influences are in the form of general ideas of how things might work. Resurrection and healings were a popular theme at that time, people thought it terms of them they were not unique to Christianity, and neither were themes of virgin birth and death and rebirth.I'll also state that I think Issiah was speaking of a young woman and thus Jews weren't expecting the Messiah to be born of a virgin, I strongly suspect that the appeal of a virgin giving birth to a saviour was from pagan influences.lfen

I'm glad I'm giving you guys something to talk about. But I was looking for help with responses to the article. Thanks.
-Brad

We have no idea where the story of Noah came from.......you certainly can't assert that it was borrowed from another culture. Exactly. And for this reason, any assertion that the Roman cults developed into Christianity is purely hypothetical and without a shred of proof to back it. Because two cultures share certain general themes doesn't mean one culture's religion was derived from the other. For instance, the Mongols and the Myans both worshipped the sun........and this, we know, was most likely pure coincidence. Tell me what specific passage you speak of.{Shut off overlong signature - Adminnemooseus}This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 11-18-2004 09:58 AM

Shadow, the article says..... I really think you're overthinking this, buddy. Nothing wrong with that, as it's better than underthinking such issues (which most people do), but fact of the matter is, the earliest known Christian writing is dated between 37 and 54 ad. The earliest known mystery writing is dated to after 200 ad. Is it hypothetically possible that the mystery religions strongly influenced Christianty? Yes. Is there a shred of proof to this? It's just as possible that Christianity molded the mystery religions and not vice versa.....and when you consider that the earliest Christian writing far pre-dates the earliest mystery writing and that Christianity has always had an exclusive nature to it which would help prevent it from being influenced by pagan sources (and, on the contrary, pagan religions, by their very nature, were easily influenced by outside sources), you have to believe that it's more likely that the similarities between mystery religion and Christianity can be counted as Christianity being a strong influence on the development of the mystery religion and not vice versa.{Shut off overlong signature - Adminnemooseus}This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 11-18-2004 09:58 AM

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I'm glad I'm giving you guys something to talk about. But I was looking for help with responses to the article. Thanks

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The article is pretty poor IMO, and also rather selectively constructed.My first comment is on the following:

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I conclude by noting seven points that undermine liberal efforts

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so is this political polemic or an actual theological argument? Either way, the author has established their bias. Are liberals = atheists? Why would a liberal, specifically, care about this argument? Sounds rather like a paranoid conspiracy to me.

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Many alleged similarities between Christianity and the mysteries are either greatly exaggerated or fabricated.

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Says who? On what authority? Clear-cut unambiguous examples please.The article is inconsistent in other ways: when discussing the risen gods it says "The tide of scholarly opinion has turned dramatically against attempts to make early Christianity dependent on the so-called dying and rising gods of Hellenistic paganism.", and yet in note 2 it says "I must pass over these Greek versions of the mystery cults. See Nash, 131-36."So are we talking about Hellenic paganism, or not? Or are we including all Paganism - becuase if we are a rejection or Hellenic rebirth gods would prove nothing. He's a list of potential rebirth gods from freedictionary.com:Life-death-rebirth deity | encyclopedia article by TheFreeDictionary* Aboriginal mythology
* Julunggul
* Wawalag
* Akkadian mythology
* Tammuz
* Ishtar
* Aztec mythology
* Xipe Totec
* Celtic mythology
* Cernunnos
* Christian mythology
* Jesus Christ
* Egyptian mythology
* Isis
* Osiris
* Etruscan mythology
* Atunis
* Greek mythology
* Adonis
* Cronus
* Cybele
* Dionysus
* Orpheus
* Persephone
* Hindu mythology
* Vishnu
* Siva
* Khoikhoi mythology
* Heitsi
* Norse mythology
* Baldur
* Gullveig
* Persian mythology
* Mithras
* Phrygian mythology
* Attis
* Roman mythology
* Aeneas
* Bacchus
* Proserpina
* Sumerian mythology
* Damuzi
* InannaThis message has been edited by contracycle, 11-18-2004 05:07 AM

And posting such a long and diverse list undermines your argument.......obviously, all these religions didn't have a common source. Therefore, the concept of death and rebirth is apparently universal.......and finding that certain Hellenic cults have death and rebirth myths doesn't mean they influenced Christianity any more than aboriginal mythology did.{Shut off overlong signature - Adminnemooseus}This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 11-18-2004 09:59 AM

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And posting such a long and diverse list undermines your argument.......obviously, all these religions didn't have a common source. Therefore, the concept of death and rebirth is apparently universal.......and finding that certain Hellenic cults have death and rebirth myths doesn't mean they influenced Christianity any more than aboriginal mythology did.

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Quite true - not ANY MORE than any other aboriginal mythology. Thus, christianity is not special, not particularly interesting, not unique, and not any more important than any other mythology. It's merely one local implemantation of the common wish that death wasn't the end.

Off topic. This thread is about whether or not Christianity developed out of pagan religions, which it clearly didn;t.But, while we're on the topic, Christianity was probably the first religion in world history to present a clear, easily accessible and comforting afterlife. Judaism didn't do it. The process of rebirth is often recounted as being as painful as death in Buddhism (I believe Buddha's first words after being born were something to the effect of "at last, this shall be the last birth I am forced to suffer"), and would only inevitably lead to the continuance of the cycle of pain and death, so Buddhism didn't do it. Most religions in world history did/do not present a clear and/or comforting concept of an afterlife, and making such an assertion in an attempt to discredit Christianity is simply a demonstration of Eurocentric thought.{Shut off overlong signature - Adminnemooseus}This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 11-18-2004 10:00 AM

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This thread is about whether or not Christianity developed out of pagan religions, which it clearly didn;t.

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I'm afraid it clearly did.

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But, while we're on the topic, Christianity was probably the first religion in world history to present a clear, easily accessible and comforting afterlife.

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Well, theres one born every minute, but you have to bait them first.Whether or not Chritistianity is unique in offering a pleaqsant afterlife is hardly a compelling argument to the idea that it DID NOT emerge from other religions. After appropriate customer surveys and focus group exercises, a nice happy afterlife was clearly the next lie needed to keep snake-oil sales high.

Don't be afraid.......when you're scared, just click your heels together and say "there's nothing like proof, there's nothing proof", and your fear of Christianity having bastardized origins will subside. And arguing that Christianity shares traits with other religions is hardly a compelling argument that it's a bastard religion. Yet, it's the only argument that you've been able to make so far (and it was easily put down, I might add).{Shut off overlong signature - Adminnemooseus}This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 11-18-2004 10:01 AM