to Christians in this forum...

I came across this forum from doing a search on demons that led me to a thread here. I have since been reading through many of the discussions in this forum.I would like to express my appreciation for my fellow brothers and sister in Christ who stand steadfast in their faith, even when challenged by the wisdom of men. Especially when I see that some of the arguments for evolution presented here are among some of the best I have read.My question to fellow believers in this forum is this; Why do you debate and try to prove G-d with worldly knowledge, i.e. science? I do not mean for that to sound condescending but ask in sincerity. I am just curious if some percieve this as a type of witnessing, with the hope that you will spark some faith in some of the non-believers here? I can understand if this is the case, because I understand that once we recieve the knowledge of Christ it is our hearts desire for others to also share in the joy of knowing Him and recieve salvation.Do we as humans have the power to reveal G-d to another? Especially using the wisdom of men? Or is it only G-d, through the power of the Holy Spirit, that can reveal Himself to us?I have only been a believer for a little over 2 years. It wasn't until I softened my heart and believed in Him and chose to seek His face that He allowed me to know Him.Prior to my salvation I could not understand how a person could have a close, personal relationship with a deity that we cannot see or touch in a physical sense. To me the very notion of this was ridiculous. The only way to understand the very real truth of this is to experince it. To feel the Holy Spirit living in you, to see His power working in your life, transforming you in ways you never thought possible, answering prayers and helping us to understand His wisdom, which is above the wisdom of all men. How can we prove these things with science?1 Corinthians 2
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.1 Corinthians 1
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:Proverbs 29
9 If a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest.Proverbs 15
12 A scorner loveth not one that reproveth him: neither will he go unto the wise.Jude 1
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.Praise and Glory to The Most High and His Blessed Son, Jesus Christ, King over all principalities and powers.

Hi pinky.I originally signed up as I had certain question re: evolution. In that forum I have met some pretty nice and well educated people.The Christian forums sadly is where I lost interest. Much like the evolution forum will attract those that purely wish to disprove evolution (irrespective of the data provided) the Christian forums tend to attract those that purely want to have a bash at Christianity, again irrespective of provided data.Unfortuniely I now believe that this is not the place to spread the good news Either way, the evolution forums are pretty good.stay well man.

pinkyAs a regular on this forum I wish to say welcome to you and as an atheist I do have a question concerning this statement from your post. What is wrong with debating science? Is it because you believe it is ,by being worldly,somehow evil? That cannot be right since you believe God created the world.And if worldly knowledge is wrong then is it not wrong also to partake of the fruits of that knowledge by the use of such things as computers and medical advances?
I was just curious and I apologize for buttting in to a question you posted for others.

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'Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts.'
(Daniel Patrick Moynihan)

It doesn't appear to me sidlined that he was trying to debate science. On the contrary, he was wondering why other Christians would try to prove God with science.He might understand that it is just exactly the literalists who insist on trying to make God disprovable by science that do the most harm to religion.

NosyNedHey Ned.How are you?I hope you are enjoying that wonderful spring air on the coast.We are finally breaking double digits here in Edmonton and as I work outside I must say I am looking forward to the sunshine and green grass.
As for pinky you are probably right however I am still puzzled over the idea of 'worldly' and its place in the christian worldview. My ex- wife never gave me a straight answer on this point and I was hoping for a clarification.
I have to leave soon but next time you're near the seawall throw a rock at the Pacific for me will you? Later.

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'Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts.'
(Daniel Patrick Moynihan)

PINKY QUOTE :My question to fellow believers in this forum is this; Why do you debate and try to prove G-d with worldly knowledge, i.e. science? I do not mean for that to sound condescending but ask in sincerity. I am just curious if some percieve this as a type of witnessing, with the hope that you will spark some faith in some of the non-believers here? I can understand if this is the case, because I understand that once we recieve the knowledge of Christ it is our hearts desire for others to also share in the joy of knowing Him and recieve salvation.
END PINKY QUOTEWe try to evidence God BECAUSE God in His word says He can be deduced from what is seen/made.Romans 1: 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse...."
END ROMANS QUOTE (NKJV)We debate the evos because they claim the God of Genesis was not involved, and we know that is not true.Pinky why do you spell God...."G-d" ?The evolutionists of this site will deny any position concerning the Divine is taken. This front shields the evos from the embarrassing defensive position of having to justify how scientific data disproves God when the data was produced/discovered under the claims of Divine neutrality. (rational enquiry/methodological naturalism)Evolution only disproves God IF the filter of your worldview is operating.Evolution only disproves God IF the filter of your worldview INTERPRETS the evidence to say so.[This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 03-29-2004]

Which is exactly what I was saying.The only ones who take the view that the evidence disproves God are the Biblical literalists.
They say if the earth is old God doesn't exist. The earth is old so ...If you don't think it is then show us the "correct" interpretation of the evidence given in:
Age Correlations and an Old Earth
and
Greenland Ice Cores

I am vehemently against the nonsense of young earth creationism.There are eons and eons of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.I respectfully disagree that YEC/literalists to be the only ones who view evidence as disproving God.Evolution by defintion also means a Creator was not involved. That is the reportive and emotive meaning of the word - admit it or not.purposeless, chance, random, mindless, fluke, accident are all adjectives that have dual meanings : The God of Genesis was not involved. This is a fact and to claim otherwise is an insult to ones intelligence.Thanks for the spirit of your post which did agree with my two points.Willowtree.

Hello Sidelined, thank you for your welcome to the forum. I see that you are from Edmonton, I was born and raised in Edmonton and as of 2 years ago moved to Wildwood. So we are neighbors .Please don't apologize for butting in, your response is more than welcome.quote from you
"What is wrong with debating science? Is it because you believe it is ,by being worldly,somehow evil?"I have no problem with debating science, I am just curious if some of my beloved brothers and sisters think it possible to prove G-d with science. I have tried this approach myself and have found that it leads to a never ending and exhausting debate. A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.Also when I say 'worldly' wisdom, I mean wisdom that is not grounded in G-d's Truth. As one who believes in G-d, I obviously believe His wisdom to be above all that of men.I don't think all science is bad, however I don't think it infallable or inerrant. There have been many things established as scientific fact, later to be revised or disproven all together as new discoveries are made. I choose to put my faith in the wisdom of G-d (which I believe is inerrant) rather than the wisdom of men.Peace,
Carolyn (yup, I'm a gurl)

How so? How do you know that god didn't just guide evolution or maybe he just kicked it off? The only thing TOE contradicts is a literal interpretation of the bible. There is nothing to say that he didn't influence the process. As I and others have already pointed out the TOE doesn't discuss the beginnings of life.

Hello Willowtree, peace and love be unto you in the blessed name of Christ.Quote from Willowtree:
"We try to evidence God BECAUSE God in His word says He can be deduced from what is seen/made."I know that and you know that, but how do we convince someone of that when they simply do not want to see it? How do we use the wisdom of men to show things that are discerned by the spirit? I have tried this course myself and it always ends up in a stale mate. I am not trying to be critical of the efforts of our brethren that use science to show the glory of the L-rd, I fully appreciate the scientific information that has been shared in this regard. I apologize if in any way my wording came across as critical, this was not my intention. It is more from my own frustration that I have encountered in trying to do the same.I ache in my heart for others to know the richness of His wisdom and mercy, as we have been blessed to know. But there are some people who are very intelligent in a human regard, that are very proud of their own intelligence and in their own human understanding that they are not willing to see the simplicity that is in the Truth of G-d and Christ. So we try to meet them on their terms, and explain G-d through 'intellect' when in fact we need to become as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. To humble our own human understanding that we are predispostioned to take great pride in. Did not Lucifer rebel in the pride of his own wisdom?It just seems to me that when we try to use science to reveal G-d to one who is astute in the matters of science, it only serves to inspire them to prove their own intellect rather than seek G-dly wisdom through humility.Quote from Willowtree:
"Pinky why do you spell God...."G-d" ?"Mainly because 'god' and 'lord' can be generic terms that many others apply to their god. Just as some prefer to use YHWH or Yeshua and other sacred names. I don't claim that this somehow makes me more pious or closer to Him, just out of a personal reverence.May you be richly blessed in all that our Father bestows upon us in His perfect love.In the Blessed Name of Christ,
carolyn

Quote : I would like to express my appreciation for my fellow brothers and sister in Christ who stand steadfast in their faith, even when challenged by the wisdom of men. Especially when I see that some of the arguments for evolution presented here are among some of the best I have read.My question to fellow believers in this forum is this; Why do you debate and try to prove G-d with worldly knowledge, i.e. science?Hello it is great to see another sister join these forums, it is difficult sometimes but if in any doubt I either go to my Husband or someone who is more knowlagable than me.I can't account for other Christians here because I'm only new myself but I don't debate with science but rather just try to help people with misconceptions.Welcome to CvEyour sister in Christ shyangel

Rand Al'thor,Your comment Is most revealing. The word, "evolution" deconstructed means "e-" "out of" or "from" and "volution" life-cycle. It expresses the essense of "natural" selection, whereas god guiding the production of organic diversity would be "artificial" selection. We produced breeds of dogs through "evolition," out of our will or choices.Now, this concern about "semantics" is "good science." That is, scientists in general are normally professionally trained, not to be scientists, but to be "doctors of philosophy" wherein lies the high standard of defining words carefully. This is carried so far normally that it produces jargon. But here, we have an important distinction. At least, Darwin thought it important enough to put "natural selection" in the title of his book, while "artificial selection" was treated in depth within, distinctively.Philosophically, we recognize the existance of evil, of suicide bombers, including intellectual suicide bombers. Of people who pretend to be enlightening counsel, but are really darkening counsel. They pretend to be trying to get to the truth, but in reality, they hate the truth, and want to frustrate anyone's efforts to get there. Let's not get into why they exist. We know that dis-information experts are out there, and in this forum. So, how do we spot them, and protect ourselves from them?The main clue is, they pervert language. They are lawyers, wanting to win their case, even if the truth is lost, and their best trick is to confuse our understanding of words.To the topic, believers are pressured by this: "Freely you have received, now freely give." They come to forums like this, in an effort to "let their light shine" so that those coming here to get the truth, are not fatally stumbled by the sabateurs. God, amoung His other duties, is a judge, and like all judges, wants the case for or against those He judges to be as clear as possible. Eve's complaint, that she was tricked into disobeying His command, was heard and considered valid. He sends His servents to places where people come looking for information, counsel, and wisdom, so that the snakes there don't get an uncontested shot at deceiving them.In the kingdom of God, words are powerful, and have very precise meanings. To stand for evolution, which implies as Willowtree asserts, Godlessness, or at least a God who is not intervening in the affairs of organic life, is not wise. It is, due to confusion and deception, often covered by grace, for there is much in the theory that accurately describes God's nature. Those seeking to know the truth, including the truth about God, can "hear everything, but hold on to what is good." Hopefully, those "darkening counsel" will be frustrated.Find a different word for God-directed "common descent."Stephen

Due to the emotion of your statement, I do not deem it viable to discuss this with you. However, I wanted to know if there is a thread somewhere where people can discuss young earth creationism, gap theory, progressive creationism, theistic evolution and the like?I regret that you are so opposed, but I understand that that is your position.

The core factor that leaves God outside of guiding evolution is the principle of salvation.If evolution occurred, then your salvation is moot.Let me explain.Christ came to reverse the 'disobedience' of Adam which in turn caused death to enter the world. Death being both physical and spiritual. Disobedience caused the immediate spiritual death which severed the connection between God and man. Simultaneously, the physical clock on man started ticking.If evolution is the process by which God brought about the world and life, you have an incongruent mess, because evolution is based on death. Moreover, that death takes place before the disobedience of Man. If death takes place before disobedience, the death of Christ is in vain. That is in essence why a Christian cannot afford the 'luxury' of having it both ways.Personally, I am more than satisfied in a literal interpretation of the Bible (much to the chagrin of willowtree, I'm sure). But I imagine that is a debate for another page since that has little to do with the debate between evolution and creationism.