Did Jesus Exist?

The question here is how much evidence is there for a historical jesus? I am primarily interested in non-biblical evidence, although certain aspects of the bible might be relevant as well.I am not a biblical scholar or an archaeologist, so I am hoping to learn from both sides that choose to participate in this debate.Some scholars believe that Jesus is simply an amalgamation/extension/etc. or older mythical figures. Some believe he was a roman rebel.There does seem to be little secular evidence (at least that I am aware of) concerning the existence of jesus. I do know that the one supposed contemporary account of jesus by josephus is thought to be a forgery. (maybe there is evidence I'm not aware of!)I'll start with some points from both sides:Jesus existed: Jesus did not exist: Some articles to get us startedHistoricity of Jesus - WikipediaChrist myth theory - WikipediaAnd a page of someone who supports the Jesus as Myth School of thought:AgeOfReason

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Started by minnemooseus, no less. The one minnemooseus topic in the "The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy" forum: The Existence of Jesus ChristMooseAdded by edit:Percy, in message 18, has pointed out the also relevant (and IMO well done, at least early on) topic Lineage of Jesus.This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 01-05-2006 02:46 PM

The testimony of believers from the earliest times ought to be excellent evidence, but I guess we can just call all of them crazy, misguided, or evil, and all those who believed down the centuries after that too. No Jesus. No point in arguing it that I can see. Enjoy your illusion.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-05-2006 01:07 AM

the only available testimony is in so called 'holy books'. these have no reliability outside their own word. we can't trust that as historically accurate until there is outside proof. just like we can't trust homer that there were really great big scary monsters causing the sea to do crazy things like whirlpools.and the belief of centuries of christians is worth nothing more than the belief of the last half century of moon-landing conspiratists.

There is almost no verifiable evidence that Jesus existed outside the record in the Bible and extrabiblical scripture. Personally, I believe Jesus existed, but even if he is only a fictional character, the message is still a valid one.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Something nice from Richard Owen in Rome The Times & The Sunday TimesThis message has been edited by Iblis, 01-05-2006 01:26 AM

Sorry Moose I missed that one!I appreciate the link.DA Coach

Outside of what?

If you are looking to see if Jesus existed, he gave instructions on how to be his witness.Acts 1
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."Until I felt the Holy Spirit, I merely accepted Jesus by faith without any proof, or evidence other than scripture of his existance. I liked what the dude had to say, so I accepted it. After having felt what I believe to be the Holy Spirit, I feel it is a step beyond just faith, and I do now feel like a witness.Can I get a witness? lol

Outside of circular reasoning, you know, using a source to prove that the same source is correct.There is a source that names Jesus' father as Pantera, a Roman centurian. Now, any objective historian faced with the two sources about Jesus daddy would have to conclude that Jesus was the son of a Roman centurian. It sure explains a lot.Brian.

There is no secular evidence from before the Jewish Revolt in 70 C.E. that shows there was a Jesus. The vast majority of scriptures that were written about Jesus came after 70 C.E. also. The letters of Paul were anywhere from 20 to 40 years after the alleged event. That shows there were communities that Paul was preaching too at that time, but Paul's letters were basically giving advice to a specific community about a specific topic, and never really mentioned Jesus except in vague terms.Paul never met Jesus in life, but rather insisted he had a vision when traveling.There might have been a Jesus who was preaching that things were based on, but how close do the stories about Jesus have to match?? I suspect that if a Jesus actually existed, the message given by the gospels were just taken from the religious movements of the time, and probably not original or even promoted by the 'proto-jesus'.The problem is we really don't have any records. For example, when it comes to the letters of paul to the various communities, do we really have a record about what those indiviudal communities believed? As far as I can see, we do not. The stories in the Gospels developed after the Jewish revolt, when there was a big emotional and spiritual upset because of the destruction of the temple. There also was a influx of gentiles into the Christian community. Those two events was bound to make a big impact on the mind set of the believers.The one set of documents that were from a messanic communinity (The dead sea scrolls), are no help to us here, because they were paranoid, and wrote in code, never writing a persons name down. There really is no way of knowing who the 'Great Teacher' was, or 'The Great Liar', or any of the other references to people they knew, but didn't want to put the name on paper for political reasons.At the current time, I can not subscribe to the hypotheses that there was a historical Jesus. The concept the stories are a combination of various preachers to be more convincing.If we come across something like a GENUNIE ossurary of James, or something similar rather than a forgery, then I will reevaluate my position.

If Jesus never existed, Christianity becomes a mere sentiment.

Actaully, that source is the Talmud. There were at least 20 different Jesus's in the talmud. I believe that the details of Pantera do not match the other stories about him.The Talmud was written down between mid second century and 4th century C.E. That makes details like that rather suspect to begin with.

I am sure you 'Felt' something. And I am sure you are attributing it to be 'the holy spirit'. That acceptance of your feeligns that are internal to yourself can not be counted as evidence FOR Jesus. After all, those same symptoms you described are experianced by people of other religions, and even atheists. They can be artifically induced in people via drugs, and stimulation of parts of the brain.What you had what is known as 'subjective' evidence. You can use those feelings to convince yourself. However, other people can not examine your feelings to make a judgement on it.