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Author Topic:   JAR's amazing theory of a Creator who doesn't Design (Faith & jar & invitees)
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1 of 42 (270863)
12-19-2005 4:52 PM


In response to a challenge, jar gave an explanation for his contention that there is a Creator who is not a Designer as follows:
http://EvC Forum: Does Darwinism Equal "No God"? -->EvC Forum: Does Darwinism Equal "No God"?
Faith asserts:
quote:
You have failed to explain how there can be a Creator but no designer. You seem to think you have explained it but you haven't.
Very good point and let me try to explain further. If this seems to get OT then perhaps you can start a thread where we can discuss it. However I'll try to keep this short enough and also tie it back into the original topic, Does Darwinism Equal "No God"?
I believe that GOD created the universe and all that is in it. Does that mean he designed stars, and galaxies? No. Does that mean he designed humans and ants? No.
God created the systems. He thought, for lack of an adequate word, the rules into existence. He created the four forces, evolution and all the basic rules we are only beginning to understand. He did not design the results, they are simply the output, the product of his creation.
So Darwinism, or the TOE does not equal atheism. The TOE is simply an explanation of how GOD did it.
I don't want to get off on how the ToE does or doesn't equal atheism on this thread, but just address this idea that there can be a Creator who is not a Designer. And I don't get this idea at all.
I believe that GOD created the universe and all that is in it. Does that mean he designed stars, and galaxies? No. Does that mean he designed humans and ants? No.
This boggles the mind, jar. The two terms are just about synonymous in ordinary usage for starters. Is there a creator of fiction who didn't design his characters? Is there an inventor who didn't design the invention? Is there an artist who didn't design the work of art? Etc.
God created the systems. He thought, for lack of an adequate word, the rules into existence.
Scripture says He SPOKE it all into existence I believe. ... and the Word was God and by Him were all things made that were made.
He created the four forces, evolution and all the basic rules we are only beginning to understand.
Isn't this the same thing as designing them? Again, how do you create something without designing it? You can create things from plans or a recipe, but that's not really creation. When one creates, one designs. When He created, He designed.
He did not design the results, they are simply the output, the product of his creation.
Perhaps this is merely a semantic problem and what you mean to say is that he did indeed design the universe but left it to work itself out according to the laws he put in place, pretty much a Deist position. But even in this case to say he created any of it is to say he designed it -- designed it to play itself out as it is doing.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-20-2005 11:57 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 12-19-2005 5:33 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 42 (270881)
12-19-2005 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
12-19-2005 4:52 PM


I don't want to get off on how the ToE does or doesn't equal atheism on this thread, but just address this idea that there can be a Creator who is not a Designer. And I don't get this idea at all.
Yes I know that you don't get this idea at all.
Is there a creator of fiction who didn't design his characters? Is there an inventor who didn't design the invention? Is there an artist who didn't design the work of art? Etc.
Totally off topic and irrelevant.
Scripture says He SPOKE it all into existence I believe. ... and the Word was God and by Him were all things made that were made.
Yup, a perfectly adequate description for the people at the time. But it says nothing.
jar writes:
He created the four forces, evolution and all the basic rules we are only beginning to understand.
to which Faith replied:
quote:
Isn't this the same thing as designing them? Again, how do you create something without designing it? You can create things from plans or a recipe, but that's not really creation. When one creates, one designs. When He created, He designed.
If you are saying that GOD designed the forces that seem to rule reality, then I would agree. In that sense, GOD the creator designed evolution, the strong force, the weak force, gravity and all the other Natural forces we have discovered.
Perhaps this is merely a semantic problem and what you mean to say is that he did indeed design the universe but left it to work itself out according to the laws he put in place, pretty much a Deist position. But even in this case to say he created any of it is to say he designed it -- designed it to play itself out as it is doing.
I would agree that he created the Universe and that the universe is proceeding as governed by those Natural Laws.
Did he design man? No!
Did he design galaxies? No!
They are solely the result of those Natural Laws.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 12-19-2005 4:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-19-2005 6:11 PM jar has replied
 Message 5 by Admin, posted 12-19-2005 7:08 PM jar has replied
 Message 12 by randman, posted 12-20-2005 3:48 AM jar has replied
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 12-21-2005 6:41 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3 of 42 (270894)
12-19-2005 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
12-19-2005 5:33 PM


Calling Randman
I would like to invite Randman to this debate. I suspect you are simply having a problem with words but if there's more to it I think the addition of another person might help sort it out. Feel free to invite someone from the evo side to help translate for you.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-19-2005 06:11 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 12-19-2005 5:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 12-19-2005 6:17 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 42 (270898)
12-19-2005 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
12-19-2005 6:11 PM


Faith calls out for help from randman
I need no help and if you need help, feel free to call on anyone at all.
edited to make the subtitle clearer.
This message has been edited by jar, 12-19-2005 05:28 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 12-19-2005 6:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 12-19-2005 7:15 PM jar has replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 5 of 42 (270920)
12-19-2005 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
12-19-2005 5:33 PM


Brevity may be the soul of wisdom, but it can hinder other's ability to comprehend your point. Those who already understand what you're saying will have no trouble finding your meaning, but those who don't are going to find the brevity frustrating.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 12-19-2005 5:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 12-19-2005 8:03 PM Admin has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 6 of 42 (270923)
12-19-2005 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
12-19-2005 6:17 PM


Calling LinearAq
With your permission I would like to invite LinearAq to the debate as he has expressed an interest in it here, to which I replied here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 12-19-2005 6:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 12-19-2005 7:18 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 42 (270925)
12-19-2005 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
12-19-2005 7:15 PM


Re: Calling LinearAq
Invite anyone you please, get any help you feel you need.
They are welcome to speak for themselves, but they cannot speak for me.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 12-19-2005 7:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Faith, posted 12-19-2005 7:26 PM jar has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 8 of 42 (270927)
12-19-2005 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
12-19-2005 7:18 PM


Please join us LINEAR.AQ
...and give us your understanding of what has been said so far.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-19-2005 07:32 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 12-19-2005 7:18 PM jar has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 42 (270938)
12-19-2005 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Admin
12-19-2005 7:08 PM


Well, Faith quoted a fairly comprehensive summary of my beliefs in her initial post. I am more than happy to expand on any question she might ask that are related to the issue under discussion.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Admin, posted 12-19-2005 7:08 PM Admin has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 10 of 42 (271013)
12-20-2005 3:36 AM


Wish Randman or Linear Aq or both would post here
...if there's any more to say.
My view of this is that I already answered jar sufficiently in my original post showing how there is no such thing as a true creator who is not a designer, so I really have nothing more to say.
If all he is saying is that he believes God merely set it all in motion and withdrew from participation in it, basically he's saying he's a Deist, and that could have been more easily said than by this odd use of the concepts of creation and design.
There is some question in my mind how a creator could create the universe but not the galaxies, but I guess that's the idea that the Big Bang did it. But then didn't God create the chemical properties for the Big Bang and the laws by which they were dispersed throughout the universe and wouldn't the formation of galaxies be the predictable result and therefore He would have planned that too? But I don't know that I care about this distinction enough to pursue it. If he's simply stating a Deist premise I can leave it at that.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-20-2005 03:42 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by randman, posted 12-20-2005 3:43 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 15 by jar, posted 12-20-2005 12:41 PM Faith has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 11 of 42 (271016)
12-20-2005 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
12-20-2005 3:36 AM


I'll post here if OK?
Is it OK or not, according to the rules? (for whoever moderates this)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 12-20-2005 3:36 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by AdminNWR, posted 12-20-2005 9:18 AM randman has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 12 of 42 (271017)
12-20-2005 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
12-19-2005 5:33 PM


where's your evidence?
You assert God created the 4 forces, evolution, etc,...but not man. Where's your evidence? Why would God just create the principles of the universe and do nothing else?
Do you think, for example, that God hears and answers prayers? If you say yes, then it doesn't make sense with the idea of a passive God that refuses to involve Himself with the creation, just sort of rolling the ball out and seeing where it goes.
Also, you are asserting that God is an Originator of the physical world, but not very knowledgeable about what the forces he created will create. He is a much more limited God, not at all omniscient, and really wouldn't be able to answer people's prayers even if He wanted.
Is that your intent?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 12-19-2005 5:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 12-20-2005 12:19 PM randman has replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 42 (271038)
12-20-2005 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by randman
12-20-2005 3:43 AM


Re: I'll post here if OK?
Is it OK or not, according to the rules?
Since Faith invited you to join, and since the opening discussion agreed to such invitations, it is OK.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by randman, posted 12-20-2005 3:43 AM randman has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 42 (271109)
12-20-2005 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by randman
12-20-2005 3:48 AM


Re: where's your evidence?
You assert God created the 4 forces, evolution, etc,...but not man. Where's your evidence?
My evidence is all around. Look at any living thing. Not one of them is really well designed. They are a collection of just barely good enough solutions, exactly what you would expect if the TOE were correct.
Look at the evidence from fossils. There has been life here on Earth for billions of years. By far most of it simply died out. Man has been here for only the briefest of seconds. Is GOD really as incompetent as Genesis makes him look that he had to practice making critters like some kid with a new piece of clay?
If the evidence of some designer is the life we see around us then that desiger is incompetent and a fool.
GOD, the Christian GOD is great. He is certainly not the foolish caricature shown in Gensis that thinks the suitable help meet for Adam will be found amoung the Lions and Tigers and Bears and OhMys. What he creats is perfect, the forces that rule the universe, the system of evolution that is self-healing and guarantees that life will go on.
God is not a fool.
The rest of your post, as usual, is Off Topic.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by randman, posted 12-20-2005 3:48 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by randman, posted 12-22-2005 11:46 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 42 (271114)
12-20-2005 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
12-20-2005 3:36 AM


Is Faith done?
My view of this is that I already answered jar sufficiently in my original post showing how there is no such thing as a true creator who is not a designer, so I really have nothing more to say.
So are you through with the discussion? If so we can ask the Admins to go ahead and close this down.
If he's simply stating a Deist premise I can leave it at that.
Nope, not a Diest premise, the pretty standard Christian premise. One that is accepted by every single major Christian sect today. In support that that IS the standard Christian position, there is the Clergy Project.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 12-20-2005 3:36 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 12-20-2005 12:44 PM jar has not replied
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 12-20-2005 7:45 PM jar has replied

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