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Author | Topic: Is it right to preach to people? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
IrishRockhound Member (Idle past 4636 days) Posts: 569 From: Ireland Joined: |
The Admin suggested that I start this particular topic. Sorry I'm late with it folks. The discussion started in another Faith and Belief thread about preaching - http://EvC Forum: The Origin of God -->EvC Forum: The Origin of God
quote: The question is, is preaching right or wrong? The Rock Hound [This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 11-15-2003] [This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 11-15-2003]
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Brian Member (Idle past 5159 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi,
I sincerely believe that it is wrong to preach. If someone is interested in a faith, or anything else for that matter, they can go and find out about it. But I feel that street preachers, or evangelists that go out and cold call at people's houses, should be stopped. I see groups of Christians in Glasgow on a regular basis, and with studying in a faculty of divinity, I probably come into contact with more Christians than the average person does. There have been many occasions when a Christian has started to tell me about Christianity and how wonderful Christ is, but they usually go away with a bewildered look on their face! What is even more horrific is the way that some people spread the Word of God. They invariably exploit situations where they have a 'captive' audience. It is appalling. These preachers really need to leave people alone and mind their own business. Brian.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1667 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
It's like religious spam.
On the other hand, I don't like people talking to me in general. And maybe I look like such a Christian guy that people don't generally stop to tell me about their mythology. That's fine with me.
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Dan Carroll Inactive Member |
Given that a Christian believes that if you don't believe in their religion, you will suffer for all eternity, I'd be horrified if they didn't want to preach. Man, how much would they have to hate people to want them to not hear the good word?
That being said, I don't take offense if someone tries to preach to me, but I take a very high level of offense if they can't understand the words "thanks, not interested".
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IrishRockhound Member (Idle past 4636 days) Posts: 569 From: Ireland Joined: |
In that respect you could say that the reason they keep trying is that they really do want to save you, even when you're obviously too deluded to understand that you're going to be burning in hell for all eternity... Where exactly do you draw the line? In their view, should good manners ever come before some one's immortal soul?
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 207 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Well, since I don't think that advertising is bad in and of itself, preaching in and of itself cannot be bad in my mind. However, there are channels available for such activity and going outside those channels is, at the very least, rude.
And, as most people have figured, exploiting the suffering of someone as a wedge to do so is evil. ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Zealot Inactive Member |
If someone is interested in a faith, or anything else for that matter, they can go and find out about it. But I feel that street preachers, or evangelists that go out and cold call at people's houses, should be stopped.
Whilst I don't like street preaching, I can't see anything wrong with knocking on someone's door and preaching to them. If they are not interested, so be it. Saying 'Thanks, not interested' is not at all difficult. If they persist, so be it. In 2 years of living in London, I've only had 1 religious person coming to my door (Jehova's witness). No big deal. Perhaps they are all over the place somewhere else, but in 3 years, I might have had a chat with 3 random Christians (be it Tube/street). I'm surprised you feel so strongly about this. [This message has been edited by Zealot, 11-16-2003]
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Brian Member (Idle past 5159 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi,
I can't see anything wrong with knocking on someone's door and preaching to them. If they are not interested, so be it. It isn't always as simple as saying 'sorry, not interested' as it is usually polite to hear what they have to say first. I have had a few at my door of different flavours of Xianity, the latest was an American baptist who asked 'Do you know the Lord Jesus Christ?' I thnk it was the hardest shift that guy has put in for a long time. I do feel strongly about this, in my opinion these people are keeping alive a fairytale that has no basis in fact, it is a severly flawed belief system that would have died out centuries ago if certain people didn't see how powerful a control mechanism it is. Generation after generation of children have been indoctrinated, psychologically abused by people forcing THEIR beliefs onto their children. Children are being suffocated with this nonsense before they have the capacity to make an informed choice, it is child abuse. Do you think that Kent Hovind's kids would come across Jesus by accident, no chance. These poor kids had NO say in their choice of faith. Brian.
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phil Guest |
I don't see how preaching is any different than colleges recruiting people. Schools I have never even heard of call me and send me letters all the time. I just tell them, "Sorry, I'm not interested."
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Brian Member (Idle past 5159 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi,
Do the colleges that try to recruit you: Comdemn you to hell if you do not join them?Blame most of societies decline on homosexuals? Condemn you for having sex if you are not married? Do they say that all other colleges are evil? Do they refuse your application if you don't take a 2000 year old myth seriously? Do they present you with a prospectus full of contradictions and ask you to ignore them? Have these colleges sytematically tried to eradicate an entire nation from the face of the Earth? Have these colleges committed some of the most atrcocious crimes against humanity? Do these colleges say you are not automatically allowed to register because a very very distant ancestor of yours broke a basic college rule, even though thet were unaware that they were doing anything wrong? Do these colleges dictate to you what you can and cannot do with your own body? Do these colleges ask you to attack and possibly even kill some medical practioners? Do these colleges tell you that some children's books are evil? Do these colleges condemn single parents? Do they tell you that certain types of music and the people who perform it are evil? Do these colleges ask you to believe in something that is ludicrous to any free thinking person? Do these colleges promote sexual inequality? Do they promote racism? Brian.
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Zealot Inactive Member |
I do feel strongly about this, in my opinion these people are keeping alive a fairytale that has no basis in fact, it is a severly flawed belief system that would have died out centuries ago if certain people didn't see how powerful a control mechanism it is. Generation after generation of children have been indoctrinated, psychologically abused by people forcing THEIR beliefs onto their children. Children are being suffocated with this nonsense before they have the capacity to make an informed choice, it is child abuse.
For someone with a 'demon child' as his avatar, you seem to be very sensitive to Christianity of any sort, but it seems you fail to show that sensitivity towards what might offend others. PS, you really do not HAVE to listen to what any Christians have to say! No thanks, I dont believe and close the door is simple enough. "people forcing THEIR beliefs onto their children" Bull. I can count on one hand ( indeed I need only use 2 fingers ) every one of my friends 'brought' up Christian that now still follow the faith. Christianity nowadays is somewhat of a novelty. Even in my Sunday School class, at which I had the worst attendance, I am likely the only one still practising the faith. PS: I spent 3 years in High School learning about evolutionary biology. So much so that after school, I pretty much had a perfectly compatable evolutionary/christian belief system. That it takes a subscription to New Scientist and alot of research on evolution and the 'other side' of science for me to rethink what I once accepted, THAT is indoctrination. Was I taught string theory ? Did I know that Crick (admittedly an Athiest) adhered to a theory thatlife was transplanted on earth by aliens, due to the complexity of DNA ? No. Brian, all YOU have to do is close the door
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Brian Member (Idle past 5159 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
Hi,
For someone with a 'demon child' as his avatar, you seem to be very sensitive to Christianity of any sort, but it seems you fail to show that sensitivity towards what might offend others. The demon child avatar is a joke. I began using it after we had laugh on another thread when we were discussing a Xian who called me the 'Son of Stan (sic)'. It is no big deal, I will probably stop using it soon, just like I stopped using the Humphrey Bogart avatar that I used when Percy suggested that Humphrey Bogart would play my part in an upcoming EVC movie!
PS, you really do not HAVE to listen to what any Christians have to say! No thanks, I dont believe and close the door is simple enough.
But surely I need to know what the person at my door is wanting, they need to actually inform me why they are at my door. I cannot open the door and think to myself that this person looks like a Xian, I better shut the door. Fair enough, they may just say, 'I am here to ask you if you have herad the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ', but they have still disturbed me, I have still had to stop doing what I was doing and go and answer the door. Then it may take me a little while to relax again and, especially if I was typing up some notes, I would need to regain my train of thought.
Bull. I can count on one hand ( indeed I need only use 2 fingers ) every one of my friends 'brought' up Christian that now still follow the faith. Christianity nowadays is somewhat of a novelty. Even in my Sunday School class, at which I had the worst attendance, I am likely the only one still practising the faith. With respect, you are hardly representative of all of Xianity. Do you really think that this applies across the board, surely one example is more than enough to call it child abuse? Did Hovind's kids find Jesus accidently? Yes Xianity is a novelty, it is a fantasy, yet how many people think that it is reality, how many think that we are all sinners and God killed himself so we can be saved? I know it is ludicrous, but many people think it is true and they are keeping this joke going by indoctrinating others, and often through exploitation.
I spent 3 years in High School learning about evolutionary biology. So much so that after school, I pretty much had a perfectly compatable evolutionary/christian belief system. That it takes a subscription to New Scientist and alot of research on evolution and the 'other side' of science for me to rethink what I once accepted, THAT is indoctrination. You have been indoctrinated with facts! I think you need to redefine your idea of indoctrination. I would agree if what you were taught was contradictory to the massive amount of evidence available, but it wasn't. You were not asked to blindly accept evolutionary by your teachers. Xians do not encourage a critical approach to their faith by their children, that is indoctrination.
Was I taught string theory ? Did I know that Crick (admittedly an Athiest) adhered to a theory that life was transplanted on earth by aliens, due to the complexity of DNA ? No. There is only so much time allocated on a school curriculum to each subject. Each department has to present what they believe is the most important areas to be covered in order to give their students a good background knowledge of their subject. I teach Religious Education and it is not possible to teach every single concept of every single religion, you have to teach what you believe will give your students a good background knowledge. The student is perfectly entitled to question what is being taught, as a teacher I welcome any feedback from my students, and I am sure your science teachers would have welcomed questions about evolution from you.
Brian, all YOU have to do is close the door And make myself out to be as rude as these Xians? Brian.
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Zealot Inactive Member |
Fair enough, they may just say, 'I am here to ask you if you have herad the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ', but they have still disturbed me, I have still had to stop doing what I was doing and go and answer the door. Then it may take me a little while to relax again and, especially if I was typing up some notes, I would need to regain my train of thought.
C'mon Brian. You have to get up, answer the door, listen to them say 2 sentences, then reply politely, "Im really just not interested", maby even add a smile and close the door. If this happens every day I can see it being annoying, but what lets max 4 times a year ? Heck we had beggars come round our house every 2/3 days DEMANDING money, NOT food. That is annoying!
With respect, you are hardly representative of all of Xianity. Do you really think that this applies across the board, surely one example is more than enough to call it child abuse? Did Hovind's kids find Jesus accidently?
Use of extremes seems always an athiest tactic. Perhaps I can point out that the Columbine kids didn't have parental supervision, thus they are misinformed ? Anyone can choose once they are 16-18 what THEY want to believe in. I know children that simply didn't believe at age 7. Why dont we ban the idea of Santa Clause, as surely that is also indoctrination ? If you're good, you get nice presents, if not, a lump of coal! Don't know about you, but I sure believed in him until 8! Took me a day to stop believing though.
Yes Xianity is a novelty, it is a fantasy, yet how many people think that it is reality, how many think that we are all sinners and God killed himself so we can be saved? I know it is ludicrous, but many people think it is true and they are keeping this joke going by indoctrinating others, and often through exploitation.
What exploitation ? If people care to believe in evolutionary tales, aliens, Budha, or The Super Mario brothers, its their choice. Evolution STILL does not explain the origin of life, yet anything else that could explain the origin of life, you dont even want to hear about. Indeed, its offensive for them to 'indoctrinate' their children with their beliefs ! Christians can have a look at history, realise that a boat load of people that believed in Christ, willingly gave their lives for a faith that was outlawed, to be tortured by Nero and other emperors. They have many facts they can use to base their belief on Brian, so respect their decisions.
You have been indoctrinated with facts! I think you need to redefine your idea of indoctrination. I would agree if what you were taught was contradictory to the massive amount of evidence available, but it wasn't. You were not asked to blindly accept evolutionary by your teachers.
Facts ? It's a theory! And like any other highschool biology student will tell you , they had never even heard ANY opposing facts against evolution. Evolution is a given.
Xians do not encourage a critical approach to their faith by their children, that is indoctrination.
Children are constantly exposed to evolutionary tales. Difficult not to question your faith. Is it not also indoctrination then to tell your child there is no God, or does your your opinion of scientific 'fact' determine what constitutes indoctrination ?
There is only so much time allocated on a school curriculum to each subject. Each department has to present what they believe is the most important areas to be covered in order to give their students a good background knowledge of their subject.
One lecture of facts opposing the ToE would have made the WORLD of difference to my educational upbringing! The notion that the ToE could be incorrect, was unheard of.
And make myself out to be as rude as these Xians?
Exactly what do they do that is so rude ? Knock on your door 4 times a year, disrupting your EvC posts ? I get 18 emails a day telling me how to score with chicks, I can deal with 4 Jehova's knocking on my door a year..
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9011 From: Canada Joined: |
zealot writes: sensitivity towards what might offend others. Why is it that I never feel personally "offended" when my view of the world is mocked? I may be annoyed or amused at what I think is a display of ignorance. I have never felt that anything about me or my person has been affected in any way even when I am called "dammed" and "evil". When we get the "evolution is a religion" line perhaps we should to the distinctions that the so-called "evolutionists" don't seem to take it personally while a surprising percentage of the other side does. The very unnecessary personal, snide remarks made by all of us on both sides are just noise in the posts to me. They are easy enough to ignore or smile wryly at. Is it so hard for you to do that?
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Brian Member (Idle past 5159 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
C'mon Brian. You have to get up, answer the door, listen to them say 2 sentences, then reply politely, "Im really just not interested", maby even add a smile and close the door. If this happens every day I can see it being annoying, but what lets max 4 times a year ? It doesnt matter if it is 4 times a year, 4 times a day or 4 times every ten years, once is too much. It isn't just a case of them say 'hello, do you have Jesus in your life' and then me closing the door. Anyone who has studied xianity knows exactly what they would say next if given the chance, so two words is the same as ten thousand. I have a church less than 20 yards from my front door, if I wanted to know anything about Jesus I would go there and ask. What gives these people the right ot come to my door, asking me if I believe in their fairytale and they get upset when I tell them that Jesus was little more than a con man/ failed messiah? WHat makes it worse is that the majority know next to mothing about xianity, it is embarrassing. Of course this rejection helps to bond the congregation, it fulfills prophecy doesnt it? Maybe there is method in the madness after all. I have tried the 'not interested line', I have even been asked if I know what the alternative to not accepting the Lord is! LOL it is intensley aggravating, these sad, desparate individuals clammering about trying to save everyone from their self deluded fantasy, then they get upset LOL.
Heck we had beggars come round our house every 2/3 days DEMANDING money, NOT food. That is annoying! Thats what you get for not having a welfare state, complain to Bush.
Use of extremes seems always an athiest tactic. Use of lies is always a xian tactic, it is in their nature. We know how many times so-called creation scientists have been caught out lying. I suppose when the person that your faith is founded on is a pathalogical liar then it comes as second nature.
Anyone can choose once they are 16-18 what THEY want to believe in. Yes, but don't you know anything about child psychology? The most inmportant years for learning are between about 3-6 years old, what you learn at this age from trusted adults, such as your parents,is difficult to let go off. Children usually believe that what their parents say is true, obviously it depends on the intensity of the forcing of the parent beliefs on to the child, but you can rest assured there are many xians who suffocate their kids with THEIR beliefs, it isnt even the kids belief.
I know children that simply didn't believe at age 7. I know literally hundred of kids aged from 11-16 who believe that every word of xianity is true, so what's your point?
Why dont we ban the idea of Santa Clause, as surely that is also indoctrination ? The thing is LOL your parents dont see Santa Clause as the saviour of the universe, they do see that other fairytale character Jesus as a saviour though, and they want their kids to be saved. What if Islam is True, these xian parents have condemned their kids to hell!
If you're good, you get nice presents, if not, a lump of coal! If you are good you go to heaven with Jesus, if you are bad you go to Hell. How many kids have been terrifed into believeing that xianity is true?
Don't know about you, but I sure believed in him until 8! Took me a day to stop believing though. It took me 20 years to stop believing the Jesus myth.
What exploitation ? The exploitation of third wrold populations by Xian missionaries. The exploitation of the hungry in the USA and UK at Xian soup kitchens.
If people care to believe in evolutionary tales, aliens, Budha, or The Super Mario brothers, its their choice. Yes it is their choice, however forcing them to sit through a sermon before you feed them is exploitation. Building a school solely with the purpose of learning someone to speak English so they can read the Bible is exploitation.
Evolution STILL does not explain the origin of life This isn't what evolution is about, maybe you should have listened to your science teachers.
yet anything else that could explain the origin of life, you dont even want to hear about. I am very familiar with a wide range of creation myths.
Indeed, its offensive for them to 'indoctrinate' their children with their beliefs ! Yes, it is child abuse to force your faith onto your children.
Christians can have a look at history, realise that a boat load of people that believed in Christ, willingly gave their lives for a faith that was outlawed, to be tortured by Nero and other emperors. They have many facts they can use to base their belief on Brian, so respect their decisions. Every faith has their martyrs so what? Tell the kids about the thousands of Jews slaughtered by Torquemada, or the thousands of Jews slaughtered by the Crusaders. Xians love to pick and choose the 'nice' things about their faith. Xianity has an awful lot of skeletons in the cupboard.
Facts ? It's a theory! And like any other highschool biology student will tell you , they had never even heard ANY opposing facts against evolution. Evolution is a given. LOL good grief not another 'Evolution if a theory not a fact' preacher! You obviously didn't listen in science classes then did you? Evolution is arguably the most authenticated and documented fact in the history of mankind. Let me put the broken record back on 'There are theories of Evolution to explain the observable fact that life evolves'. Do you think that someone just dreamt this up, or do you think that someone observed something and then tried to present a theory about how this something happened? Evolution is easily falsified, no one has manged ot do it, you seem well-informed about it, go win yourself a Nobel Prize! I dont think there is a highschool student in Scotland who thinks that evolution is 'just' a theory. Maybe you need to go back to school.
Evolution is a given. Yes, because to deny the mountains of proof for it is perverse. You may as well say 'Gravity is a given.'
Is it not also indoctrination then to tell your child there is no God, or does your your opinion of scientific 'fact' determine what constitutes indoctrination ? Since I dont have any kids I cannot tell them anything. LOL when was the last time you met an evangelical atheist!
One lecture of facts opposing the ToE would have made the WORLD of difference to my educational upbringing! The notion that the ToE could be incorrect, was unheard of. Why would it make a difference? What about a lecture on the facts against gravity or a lecture on the scientific absurdities in the Bible. Alecture on the facts against a 6000 year old universe, a lecture against all varieties of beetles evolving from one pair in 4500 years, the fact that they would be evolving quicker than they reproduced, would lectures highlighting the absurdity of the Bible not have made a difference to your education?
Exactly what do they do that is so rude ? Knock on your door 4 times a year, disrupting your EvC posts ? I get 18 emails a day telling me how to score with chicks, I can deal with 4 Jehova's knocking on my door a year.. It is rude to disturb me and renmind me that this fantasy is still being circulated around the world. It reminds me how pathetic a belief system xianity is, it reminds me of 20 wasted years, it reminds me of the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews, it reminds me of how embarrassingly naive humans can be...... Don't even get me started on the Jehovah's LOL Brian. Phew, what a wee rant!
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