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Author Topic:   The Prodigal Metaphor
Phat
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Posts: 18310
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 23 (393883)
04-08-2007 6:47 AM


One of the parables which Jesus teaches on is the parable of The Lost Son The Message Bible tells it like this, in modern thought for thought transliteration:
"There was once a man who had two sons. The younger said to his father, 'Father, I want right now what's coming to me.'
"So the father divided the property between them. It wasn't long before the younger son packed his bags and left for a distant country. There, undisciplined and dissipated, he wasted everything he had. After he had gone through all his money, there was a bad famine all through that country and he began to hurt. He signed on with a citizen there who assigned him to his fields to slop the pigs.
He was so hungry he would have eaten the corncobs in the pig slop, but no one would give him any. "That brought him to his senses. He said, 'All those farmhands working for my father sit down to three meals a day, and here I am starving to death. I'm going back to my father. I'll say to him, Father, I've sinned against God, I've sinned before you; I don't deserve to be called your son. Take me on as a hired hand.' He got right up and went home to his father.
"When he was still a long way off, his father saw him. His heart pounding, he ran out, embraced him, and kissed him. The son started his speech: 'Father, I've sinned against God, I've sinned before you; I don't deserve to be called your son ever again.'
"But the father wasn't listening. He was calling to the servants, 'Quick. Bring a clean set of clothes and dress him. Put the family ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Then get a grain-fed heifer and roast it. We're going to feast! We're going to have a wonderful time! My son is here”given up for dead and now alive! Given up for lost and now found!' And they began to have a wonderful time.
"All this time his older son was out in the field. When the day's work was done he came in. As he approached the house, he heard the music and dancing. Calling over one of the houseboys, he asked what was going on. He told him, 'Your brother came home. Your father has ordered a feast”barbecued beef!”because he has him home safe and sound.'
"The older brother stalked off in an angry sulk and refused to join in. His father came out and tried to talk to him, but he wouldn't listen. The son said, 'Look how many years I've stayed here serving you, never giving you one moment of grief, but have you ever thrown a party for me and my friends? Then this son of yours who has thrown away your money on whores shows up and you go all out with a feast!'
"His father said, 'Son, you don't understand. You're with me all the time, and everything that is mine is yours”but this is a wonderful time, and we had to celebrate. This brother of yours was dead, and he's alive! He was lost, and he's found!'"
Many people have heard this parable, and the Prodigal son is almost always assumed to be the younger one. The elder son, though rarely mentioned, is the true lost son, in my opinion. In fact, it can be said that the elder son is the representation of much of Christianity today.
We feel entitled to special treatment from our Father, and become irate when attention is focused on the ones who have not been raised in a sheltered environment as we have.
I want to discuss the meaning of this parable in a scriptural context and in light of other teachings of Jesus. Am I a representation of the Eldest Son? Is organized Christianity behaving like the Eldest Son in an era when inclusiveness, forgiveness, and sharing of resources is demanded of our religion?
Either Bible Study or Faith/Belief
Edited by Phat, : add word

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Message 2 of 23 (393890)
04-08-2007 9:29 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 3 of 23 (393915)
04-08-2007 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
04-08-2007 6:47 AM


Phat writes:
The elder son, though rarely mentioned, is the true lost son, in my opinion.
We do tend to concentrate on the prodigal son and forget about the "good" son. And it turns out that he wasn't that "good" after all. He was jealous of his brother. He was smug in his obedience. He was angry with his father for forgiving his brother.
It seems he would have been happier if his brother had stayed lost.
We see the same attitude all the time from professing Christians: their lost brothers "choose" to be lost, their fate is their own responsibility. But according to Jesus, that isn't the way the father sees it: your home is always there for you. Your father will accept you even if your "good" brothers won't.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18310
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 23 (393920)
04-08-2007 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ringo
04-08-2007 12:03 PM


Metaphors for everyday life
Ringo writes:
We see the same attitude all the time from professing Christians: their lost brothers "choose" to be lost, their fate is their own responsibility. But according to Jesus, that isn't the way the father sees it: your home is always there for you. Your father will accept you even if your "good" brothers won't.
I think about parables and about what it means to be a Christian on a daily basis. Some of what I see is the frustrations and darkness of my own heart.
A recent example was at my workplace. (A Safeway store) I have recently transferred to a high-theft store and am now observing a neighborhood of gleaners who steal an average of between $260.00-$350.00 a day from my workplace.
I found myself becoming furious over this activity! What was disturbing to me was the attitude that I perceived these people to have---as if they deserved it or something! (I am working on myself! )
The same attitude may have been found in the older brother. After all, the younger brother had already spent his portion of the inheritance and was back for more! The older one was honest and had worked for everything he had (or would have) and now was being asked to share more of his inheritance with the younger one who had even gotten to have fun with wild women at Dads expense!
The older brother was clearly farther from Gods heart than the younger, who was willing to come home and work as a hired hand for his Father. Maybe I need to realize that God does not owe me anything and that if He chooses to give the worlds resources to those who don't have anything as opposed to me--Mr. lower middle class American--it is entirely Gods prerogative to do so.
Edited by Phat, : clarification

Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them.
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”
--General Omar Bradley

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ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 5 of 23 (393923)
04-08-2007 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
04-08-2007 12:42 PM


Re: Metaphors for everyday life
Phat writes:
The older brother was clearly farther from Gods heart than the younger, who was willing to come home and work as a hired hand for his Father.
The key question is: Which is more important to you? The rewards/status/pride of "belonging" to your Father, or the relationship with your Father?
... a neighborhood of gleaners....
Interesting choice of terminology. You are aware, of course, that gleaning is a Biblically sanctioned activity. In fact, it was wrong to not leave something for the gleaners.
We reap what we sow, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's "ours".
The prodigal son was content (after he repented) for the Father to "give him each day his daily bread". He didn't expect any further inheritance.
But the "good" son jealously guarded what was "his". In that sense, he too was trying to grab his inheritance before he was entitled too it. He was trying to dictate his father's will.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18310
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 23 (393938)
04-08-2007 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ringo
04-08-2007 1:03 PM


Re: Metaphors for everyday life
Ringo writes:
You are aware, of course, that gleaning is a Biblically sanctioned activity. In fact, it was wrong to not leave something for the gleaners.
Jar taught me that word. I don't see the low income neighborhood in which I live as an entitled one, but for some reason I feel a sense of entitlement in my own life. Maybe it is because my Father paved the way for me. He worked hard for thirty years as a homebuilder and then died prematurely at age 59, right when I was 17.
His inheritance has probably spoiled me more than it has helped me as I have nothing to show for it. Perhaps it makes me angry when I see inner city people demanding their inheritance from the business that employees me as well as the government assistance that they receive. It feels as if they are spoiling any future raises that I may get, and to be truthful, were I as poor as they I would be the poorest of them. I am not tough enough to survive in this cruel world.
I have been too long under the protection of Daddy's house.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 23 (393942)
04-08-2007 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
04-08-2007 2:08 PM


Re: Metaphors for everyday life
Perhaps it makes me angry when I see inner city people demanding their inheritance from the business that employees me as well as the government assistance that they receive.
Just a moment there Phat.
Nothing you have posted related to you store showed examples of anyone demanding some inheritance.
You chose to use the word "gleaning". I still wonder if you actually understand it or what the implications were and should be today?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 8 of 23 (393956)
04-08-2007 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
04-08-2007 2:08 PM


Re: Metaphors for everyday life
Phat writes:
Perhaps it makes me angry when I see inner city people demanding their inheritance from the business that employees me as well as the government assistance that they receive.
Biblically, the poor are entitled to glean from the fields. Now, I'm not sure that gleaners' rights apply to stealing from Safeway but I think the poor are definitely entitled to government assistance. I've said this before in another thread: if those of us who are better-off were doing our duty, individually or through our churches, there would be no need for government assistance.
But I don't think it's right to think of that entitlement as an inheritance. The prodigal son started out at the head of the pack. He lost his advantage through stupidity but he got back what he lost through no effort of his own.
(The story of Job could probably tie in here too. )
The prodigal son and his "good" brother were basically the same. They were looking for the wrong kind of reward. They were looking to the future, to their inheritance, instead of appreciating what they had in the present and doing what they should in the present.
The difference was that the prodigal son learned his lesson.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18310
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 23 (393964)
04-08-2007 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
04-08-2007 3:41 PM


Re: Metaphors for everyday life
gleaning was probably not the best choice of words as relating to shoplifters at Safeway!
Ringo says that the younger son learned his lesson and that both sons were looking for an inheritance.
I think that in modern terms, a poor person looking for welfare is the same as a wealthy trustafarian kid looking for Daddys will.
Both have expectations of help from another source. My question is:
By expecting help from God, am I setting myself up for co-dependency?

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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 23 (393967)
04-08-2007 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
04-08-2007 7:23 PM


Re: Metaphors for everyday life
You are looking at the story from the wrong perspective. The theological point of the story is the Dad's reaction. What can be learned from the Dad's behavior?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 11 of 23 (393968)
04-08-2007 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
04-08-2007 7:23 PM


Re: Metaphors for everyday life
quote:
By expecting help from God, am I setting myself up for co-dependency?
It depends upon the sort of help you expect, I should think.
OTOH, I think that any superstition which requires you to give over your own will, constantly enforce the idea that you are weak without God, and makes you repeat the mantra of "I'm not worthy, I'm nothing at all without God, I have to follow His rules otherwise I'll suffer" can't help but make someone co-dependent.
I mean, it's exactly what controlling, abusive men say to their victims to beat down their self-esteem so they don't have the self-worth to leave them.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3480 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 12 of 23 (393974)
04-08-2007 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
04-08-2007 6:47 AM


The Family Crisis Dramatized
If you like the parables, I find the book by Brad H. Young to be very interesting. The title: "The Parables: Jewish Tradition and Christian Interpretation". His writing does help influence my reading of the parables. Any quotes are from his book.
A person living without God is like the younger son running away to a far country. ...The elder son is like a religious person who misunderstands the dividne nature and lacks a meaningful relationship with God.
IOW, the elder son is following the letter of what is expected of him, but he doesn't have a good relationship with his father. He's just painting by the numbers.
You commented about the younger son coming back for more inheritance in another post I think. The father split the inheritance between the two sons. There isn't any more. Goes to how the Jews did things at that time. By asking for his inheritance essentially told his father he wished he was dead and by accepting his share the elder voiced the same opinion.
This parable wasn't told to gentiles, it was told to Jews. So to understand the lesson you would need to try and understand it from the Jewish perspective.
In Jewish thought, God was not considered an employer who paid a wage but was more accurately conceived of as a father who desired a proper reltaionship with his children. He is to be served not in order to receive compensation but out of love.
We shouldn't be serving God just for reward or to avoid punishment.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 23 (393975)
04-08-2007 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by purpledawn
04-08-2007 9:09 PM


Re: The Family Crisis Dramatized
This parable wasn't told to gentiles, it was told to Jews. So to understand the lesson you would need to try and understand it from the Jewish perspective.
Thank you.
One of the big problems is that Christians read the Bible as though it were written to Christians, even though Jesus was certainly not a Christian but rather a Jew speaking most often to Jews.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5975 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 14 of 23 (394142)
04-09-2007 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
04-08-2007 6:47 AM


Phat, jar is correct. This parable is primarily about the father's joy at finding the lost son. It is about the love of the father, which should never be distrusted.
Second to this, it speaks of the father's fairness. There is no way to say that the younger son is 'luckier' unless you were to add together all of the good things which the elder had recieved over the years and find them incomparable to the celebrations of that one day. The point to me is that there is no need for jealousy!
There is also no need for jealousy of the shoplifters. While it may not be moral of them to steal, they are not necessarily getting 'ahead' of you. You do know that many employers will pay less to minorities doing the same job which you do, based only on their ethnicity? You do know that none of this is about who gets more in material terms, but about who deserves more 'attention'. Can you say you are getting less attention from God during this whole time that He HAS allowed you to know Him?
I don't think the older brother was evil at all. He only overstepped his bounds by becoming discontent. He failed to see what he DID have. Both sons started out equal. Both ended up equal. They were both loved. Is it not worth anything that the older one had the benefits of his good conduct always there to console him? Isn't the point of the story to trust in the providence of the father?

This message is a reply to:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5975 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 15 of 23 (394146)
04-09-2007 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by nator
04-08-2007 7:45 PM


Re: Metaphors for everyday life
nator writes:
OTOH, I think that any superstition which requires you to give over your own will, constantly enforce the idea that you are weak without God, and makes you repeat the mantra of "I'm not worthy, I'm nothing at all without God, I have to follow His rules otherwise I'll suffer" can't help but make someone co-dependent.
In this parable, it was exactly this attitude from the son that made him exalted.
The son wasn't 'special' because he got away with stuff. Neither are the darn shoplifters. They will only be 'special' because they return to God.

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