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Author Topic:   Assuming the flood was real
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 1 of 52 (13287)
07-10-2002 9:03 PM


I am deliberately putting this into the "Faith and Belief" area, rather than into the "Geology and the Great Flood" area.
I start this new topic with the premise that the Noahatic flood actually happened. The reality of that flood, is here assumed as a given. Now, this may have been in a YEC or OEC framework - for this discussion, it doesn't matter.
I normally stay clear of the theological discussions, but I have come to wonder about one or more questions.
Now, as I understand it, the flood is considered to be an act of re-creation, apparently to fix what had gone wrong after the original creation (which apparently wasn't as "good" as God originally thought).
Now for the questions:
1) Did indeed, the original creation, turn out not to be "good"?
And more important:
2) Was the re-creation act of the flood a success? Did it's happening result is a better world, than that which would have been, had the flood not happened?
As I see it, the flood had no positive results. It is a detail in the Bible, that has no real significance.
Comments?
Moose
------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by gene90, posted 07-10-2002 9:15 PM Minnemooseus has not replied
 Message 3 by Tranquility Base, posted 07-10-2002 9:41 PM Minnemooseus has replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3902 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 2 of 52 (13291)
07-10-2002 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
07-10-2002 9:03 PM


(1) Apparently man was "too fallen" or something.
(2) I see no signs of success, and the OT implies it was failure.
I think it is a second or third hand account of some natural event that was eventually passed on to the Israelite. It is referred to later by Jesus, but I think it is an allegory, attempting to use Noah as a standard of righteousness. Now, I don't understand that part because I think Noah would be vulnerable to a modern-day character assault if he were running for public office, it seems he had a tendency to get stone drunk and sleep outside naked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-10-2002 9:03 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 52 (13296)
07-10-2002 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
07-10-2002 9:03 PM


Moose
The original creation was marred by the fall descibed in early Gen (the curses on Satan, man, woman and the earth are all explained and linked to each other). These curses are all reversed or finalized in the book of Revelation specifically.
The flood was just one step in a process the earth underwent/is undergoing. Earth began out of water, then the flood, firey vulcanism, the separation of continents and the coming firey refinement. These individually parallel the timeline of Israel, the Church, a person's life and Christ's life. NAtural birth, baptism in water and fire, speration to God given identiy (sanctification) and perfection at the last day. it is a seamless comparison for earth, man, the church, Israel and Christ. It is utterly amazing and reveals the deepest truths of God, the universe and everything - seriously.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 07-10-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-10-2002 9:03 PM Minnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-10-2002 10:29 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 4 of 52 (13302)
07-10-2002 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tranquility Base
07-10-2002 9:41 PM


TB, setting aside the bulk of your message, I ask:
What did God accomplish, by means of the flood?
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Tranquility Base, posted 07-10-2002 9:41 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Tranquility Base, posted 07-10-2002 10:42 PM Minnemooseus has replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 52 (13306)
07-10-2002 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Minnemooseus
07-10-2002 10:29 PM


The flood killed of a particularly degenerate man, reshaped the earth's surface creating mounains, hills and basins with variable climates. It resurfaced the earth with volcanically generated minerals for agricultural furtility. It separated the continets and peoples to individual identities.
Who knows in detail but by analogy to baptism in water and the spirit (this analogy is specifically made in the NT) I suspect he achieved a lot. We just don't quite know exactly what the pre-flood surface and climate was like.
PS - even the speaking in tongues of Acts 2 is in parellel with the Tower of Babel following the flood. God loves unification (John 17)but chooses to diversify before unifying. God honours our individual identities whilst at the same time offerring us onesness with him. The trinity is no different internally, 3 but 1.
[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 07-10-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-10-2002 10:29 PM Minnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-10-2002 10:59 PM Tranquility Base has replied
 Message 9 by gene90, posted 07-23-2002 12:01 AM Tranquility Base has replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 6 of 52 (13309)
07-10-2002 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tranquility Base
07-10-2002 10:42 PM


quote:
The flood killed of a particularly degenerate man,...
OK, I guess I'll buy that.
quote:
...reshaped the earth's surface creating mounains, hills and basins with variable climates. It resurfaced the earth with volcanically generated minerals for agricultural furtility. It separated the continets and peoples to individual identities.
Note: Still operating under the premise that the flood was a real event.
Question 1) How much of that last part, is documented in the bible?
Question 2) Why was this reshaping of the earth's environment needed? One can't seem to blame environmental deficiencies on the pre-flood failings of humanity. Was part of the original creation blotched? Or just left uncompleted?
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Tranquility Base, posted 07-10-2002 10:42 PM Tranquility Base has replied

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Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 52 (13318)
07-11-2002 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Minnemooseus
07-10-2002 10:59 PM


Moose
There are dozens of sciptures in Psalms etc referring to both mountains and waters 'quaking' and 'rushing'. A non-allegorical interpretation is uggestive of the creation and the flood.
The volcanic mineral thing is in analogy with the fruits of the Holy Spirit. I could do a Bible Studty on it - we'll see. I'm not particularly aware of a scriputre associating the flood volcanism with fruitfulness it is just a personal theory. The scriptures perhaps talk of the continental drift in the 'days of Peleg after the flood' but I won't be dogmatic on that and obviously the Tower of Babel event is unambiguously the seperaton of peoples based on tongue.
Q2 is a good question. I have no idea except that our land was cursed when we were. Something happened to creation when the fall occurred. The land became hard to work, childbirth was harder etc. This is a deep mystery that I do not have the answer too and yet suspect it is consistent with the other patterns I have spoken of. Creation was not botched - there was a fall clearly documented as you know!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-10-2002 10:59 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 8 of 52 (13891)
07-21-2002 5:05 PM


Quoting myself, from the initial message:
quote:
And more important:
2) Was the re-creation act of the flood a success? Did it's happening result is a better world, than that which would have been, had the flood not happened?
As I see it, the flood had no positive results. It is a detail in the Bible, that has no real significance.
I'll give this topic a bump, by (perhaps) clarifying my motivation in starting it.
I intended this topic to be a theological discussion, of the significance of the flood, regardless of if it was a physical reality or just a symbolic passage.
So, what did God accomplish by means of the flood?
Moose

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Big B, posted 07-31-2002 7:45 PM Minnemooseus has not replied
 Message 12 by forgiven, posted 11-23-2002 10:56 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3902 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 9 of 52 (13969)
07-23-2002 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tranquility Base
07-10-2002 10:42 PM


I also have to wonder if there is a connection between the role 'the waters' played in Creation and the Flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Tranquility Base, posted 07-10-2002 10:42 PM Tranquility Base has replied

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 Message 10 by Tranquility Base, posted 07-23-2002 1:26 AM gene90 has not replied

Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 52 (13975)
07-23-2002 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by gene90
07-23-2002 12:01 AM


^ I see the creation day 3 waters as birth and the flood as rebirth. Seems quite consistent.

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Big B
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 52 (14589)
07-31-2002 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Minnemooseus
07-21-2002 5:05 PM


quote:
Originally posted by minnemooseus:
I'll give this topic a bump, by (perhaps) clarifying my motivation in starting it.
I intended this topic to be a theological discussion, of the significance of the flood, regardless of if it was a physical reality or just a symbolic passage.
So, what did God accomplish by means of the flood?
Moose

Well, that's not an easy question to answer for the simple fact that had the flood not occurred (under the assumption that it did occur) then we don't really know what would have become of man. Maybe we'd all have beaten eachother up because of intense sin and be out of existence or maybe we'd all be in a happy land of peace where we all still lived to be 1000 years old. Only God knows the answer to that, but the real question is the implication of predestination vs. free will. If we would up screwing up and was going to have to cleanse humanity then why didn't he foresee that prior to having made man-kind? This flood echoes the philosophy of free will in the Bible, since we obviously had the will to chose to be bad enough to need to be cleansed it brings up the omniscence factor. Its a very slippery slope that is walked between predestination and free will.
However, if you do believe in the Bible then you must accept that whatever would have happened without the flood would have been a less desireable consequence than (to Him) than what has happened. Although it at least appears that we're less Godly now than ever yet we have received nothing but prosperity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-21-2002 5:05 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 52 (23897)
11-23-2002 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Minnemooseus
07-21-2002 5:05 PM


quote:
Originally posted by minnemooseus:
Quoting myself, from the initial message:
quote:
And more important:
2) Was the re-creation act of the flood a success? Did it's happening result is a better world, than that which would have been, had the flood not happened?
As I see it, the flood had no positive results. It is a detail in the Bible, that has no real significance.
I'll give this topic a bump, by (perhaps) clarifying my motivation in starting it.
I intended this topic to be a theological discussion, of the significance of the flood, regardless of if it was a physical reality or just a symbolic passage.
So, what did God accomplish by means of the flood?
Moose

moose, i think there's more to it than you've read so far... yeah degenerate man plays into it, but also genesis 6 (when read in the context of 2 enoch)... here're a few of my thoughts
God put some angels in charge of watching his creation.. enoch called them, strangely enough, the watchers... now they were supposed to have the star trek non-interference rule in place, but they violated that... different ones taught different things to mankind... worse, they saw some things humans had (and did) that appealed to them... so they took physical form and bred with humans...
the watchers themselves were worshipped, as you might imagine.. but their offspring were 'supermen/women'... giants physically and mentally... capable of and practicing great evil...
it's my belief that in all creation only one family remained free from the blood of the watchers, the family of noah... the flood was designed and implimented to bring the world back to man's only... man needed a certain amount of time to reach whatever points God knew to be the optimum points in his plan
now i don't think any of this took God by surprise, but given the attributes i subscribe to him the flood took place as part of that plan, mapped out before creation..
this is just my view, ok? based on what little study i've had time to devote to it.. remember that before asking me to back it up.. it's just my opinion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Minnemooseus, posted 07-21-2002 5:05 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by joz, posted 11-23-2002 12:22 PM forgiven has replied

joz
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 52 (23923)
11-23-2002 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by forgiven
11-23-2002 10:56 AM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
it's my belief that in all creation only one family remained free from the blood of the watchers, the family of noah...
Its a shame his sons took wives from outside that limmited *pure* gene pool then isn`t it....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by forgiven, posted 11-23-2002 10:56 AM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by John, posted 11-23-2002 12:37 PM joz has not replied
 Message 15 by forgiven, posted 11-23-2002 2:31 PM joz has replied

John
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 52 (23926)
11-23-2002 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by joz
11-23-2002 12:22 PM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
Its a shame his sons took wives from outside that limmited *pure* gene pool then isn`t it...
Maybe they just loved their sister... a lot.
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
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forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 52 (23943)
11-23-2002 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by joz
11-23-2002 12:22 PM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
it's my belief that in all creation only one family remained free from the blood of the watchers, the family of noah...
Its a shame his sons took wives from outside that limmited *pure* gene pool then isn`t it....

actually by "family" i was including them all

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by joz, posted 11-23-2002 12:22 PM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
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