To atheists: Why do you help me?

Following my attacks to Harun Yahya, some Muslims have tried to stop me by implying that evolution always lead to atheism. One even asked me this:So, if you are a good Muslim, you would not spread evolution, as this is the core of their anti-religious disbelief system.

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Can you think of a person who believe in God firmly, yet at the same time spreading a thought that undermine belief in God with the help of disbelievers in God? Do you think it is possible for agnostics and atheists to come to you voluntarily and sincerely to help you understand and, thus, strenghthen your belief in God, or help in spreading the truth about God which is repugnant to them? Do you think they rush toward you because they think you are spreading the truth of evolution which will make people know more about evolution and, thus, believe more in God? If you do not want to answer these question, or if you have no answers to these, you have to ask them these questions. You have to pose these question to those agnostics and atheists who are helping you if you really sincere in your cause. If you do your activities for the sake of Allah, you have to ask these questions to them.He/she asked it, so I present the questions for you to answer. I also invite the non-atheists to comment.

And some of my exchange with him:
http://liquid2k.com/traduza/hai.htmThe first part is 'hai''s second reply to my e-mail, and at the bottom you will find my third reply.Please, I need your sincere answers.
From a concerned regular.

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Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
Can you think of a person who believe in God firmly, yet at the same time spreading a thought that undermine belief in God with the help of disbelievers in God?

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Your friends have got you here, IMOH. Evolution does undermine the rationality of belief in God. Large parts of science do that in fact. I know some people here disagree. Also, remember that I am talking from a perspective of christianity vs. science. I am not entirely sure how Islam treats such things. In particular, Christianity's big scientific stumbling block is the OT. Accept it literally, the way it was meant to be taken, and you bumb heads with science. I know that Islam accepts the OT as scripture but I am not sure how it fits into the grand scheme of things.

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Do you think it is possible for agnostics and atheists to come to you voluntarily and sincerely to help you understand and, thus, strenghthen your belief in God, or help in spreading the truth about God which is repugnant to them?

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To help you understand? Yes. Strengthen your belief in God? This isn't really on my mind when we talk science. And finally, the truth about God isn't repugnant to me. Its the lies parading as truth that get my goat.

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Do you think they rush toward you because they think you are spreading the truth of evolution which will make people know more about evolution and, thus, believe more in God?

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Nope. I help, or try, because I believe the best answer is evolution. It has nothing to do with God.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
Following my attacks to Harun Yahya, some Muslims have tried to stop me by implying that evolution always lead to atheism. One even asked me this:So, if you are a good Muslim, you would not spread evolution, as this is the core of their anti-religious disbelief system.M: This is a fallacy as not all atheists are practicing scientists and of those not all are interested in or necessarily know much about evolutionary biology. It is also a fallacy to call agnostics or atheists "practicing" a disbelief system. How do you practice not believing in a religion you don't believe in? It also suggests atheism/agnosticism are a cohesive monolithic organization which is a popular myth I have seen coming from fundamentalists whether they be Christian, Muslim, etc.Can you think of a person who believe in God firmly, yet at the same time spreading a thought that undermine belief in God with the help of disbelievers in God?M:
Darwin, Galileo, most modern biologists etc etc etc. Do you think it is possible for agnostics and atheists to come to you voluntarily and sincerely to help you understand and, thus, strenghthen your belief in God, or help in spreading the truth about God which is repugnant to them?M: Stupid argument. Why would a religious person seek to strengthen their belief in their god by consulting people who do not believe in their god?Do you think they rush toward you because they think you are spreading the truth of evolution which will make people know more about evolution and, thus, believe more in God?M: This sentence makes no sense. The goal of science is not to "believe more in god". You should suggest they first figure out what science is before they rush off with these bizarre conspiracy theories.If you do not want to answer these question, or if you have no answers to these, you have to ask them these questions. You have to pose these question to those agnostics and atheists who are helping you if you really sincere in your cause. If you do your activities for the sake of Allah, you have to ask these questions to them.M: This assumes that they actually speak for Allah themselves. For all they know you are the newest prophet and Allah speaks through you via science. They have no way to test or disprove that. Thus, your word and your religious observance is just as valid as theirs.Andya:
He/she asked it, so I present the questions for you to answer. I also invite the non-atheists to comment.M: I find the entire message from him/her completely bizarre. They seem to think (much like christian fundamentalists) that science is somehow a giant conspiracy to destroy their religion.Andya, you seem to be having lots of battles outside the EvC forums Cheers,
Mammuthus

In particular, Christianity's big scientific stumbling block is the OT. Accept it literally, the way it was meant to be taken, and you bumb heads with science. Big assumption there. Was it the "way it was meant to be taken?". Many Christian theologians, and equally Jewish ones, do not think so.

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Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
Following my attacks to Harun Yahya, some Muslims have tried to stop me by implying that evolution always lead to atheism. One even asked me this:

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So, if you are a good Muslim, you would not spread evolution, as this is the core of their anti-religious disbelief system.

​

Can you think of a person who believe in God firmly, yet at the same time spreading a thought that undermine belief in God with the help of disbelievers in God? Do you think it is possible for agnostics and atheists to come to you voluntarily and sincerely to help you understand and, thus, strenghthen your belief in God, or help in spreading the truth about God which is repugnant to them? Do you think they rush toward you because they think you are spreading the truth of evolution which will make people know more about evolution and, thus, believe more in God? If you do not want to answer these question, or if you have no answers to these, you have to ask them these questions. You have to pose these question to those agnostics and atheists who are helping you if you really sincere in your cause. If you do your activities for the sake of Allah, you have to ask these questions to them.

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He/she asked it, so I present the questions for you to answer. I also invite the non-atheists to comment.

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Since my assistance is apparently the one that got you into trouble, I suppose I better respond. If things would be easier for you in the future, it might be best to caveat your requests for assistance to limit the response to theists, or perhaps find a different forum in which to ask.In any event, in the above quoted section, your correspondent has placed you in what is essentially an untenable position. He has framed the question as a subspecies of the "Have you stopped beating your wife, yes or no?" type of no-win scenario.However, to answer your correspondent's numerous questions from the above and the link (in no particular order):1. Do you think it is possible for agnostics and atheists to come to you voluntarily and sincerely to help you understand...My response: Why not? You were apparently honest in your question. It was a scientific question that seemed to require a scientific answer, one that I was not personally qualified to provide - so I forwarded the question to someone I knew WAS qualified. You have given me no indication during our limited correspondence on this board that would lead me to believe that you weren't sincere, or that you had some motive beyond a simple request for assistance. On the other hand, it might be interesting to hear from your interlocutor why he feels that an atheist is incapable of rendering assistance to someone when asked. If you didn't want help, you shouldn't have asked.2. ...and, thus, strenghthen your belief in God, or help in spreading the truth about God which is repugnant to them?My response: Why do you think (or does this writer think) that science has anything to do with belief in God, or in spreading the "truth" about God? Science makes no statement one way or the other concerning the divine. It is neither inherently religious, nor intrinsically atheist. Evolution, in particular, is simply the scientific explanation for how the diversity of life arose. If someone chooses the personal belief that God used evolution as the process, the scientific facts of evolution provide neither support nor refute the belief. My assumption was that was what you were interested in. If not, you'd better let me (and Ergaster, ultimately) know immediately.3. Do you think they rush toward you because they think you are spreading the truth of evolution which will make people know more about evolution and, thus, believe more in God?My response: Again, the "truth" of evolution says nothing about belief or disbelief in God. If you are using a scientific theory to bolster your belief in the supernatural, that's your look-out. I'm sorry to say that if that is the case, you are severely misunderstanding the scientific process and what science is. You are, of course, free to mix the two - but in that instant it ceases to be science.So why did I bother? Actually, I'm asking myself that question even as I type. However, let me try and explain my position:a. You are a scientist (or planning on becoming a scientist). As such, I respect your education and profession. It matters not one jot what your "religion" is beyond that. I couldn't care less if you worshipped ancestor spirits in trees and sacrificed goats at the full moon - as long as it doesn't effect your scientific research or work. So as a colleague (or potential colleague), when you asked for help I responded. You were, of course, free to accept it or reject it - no one forced you.b. Whatever your motivations might be, you have consistently opposed pseudoscience, especially religiously-based pseudoscience. I do the same, undoubtedly for different reasons. I was quite happy to provide assistance at your request. There is no more sinister motive than that. Your Moslem pseudoscientific creationists are no better or worse (or even fundamentally different from) the Christian ones. In fact, if your correspondent cared to do a little research, he'd find that Harun Yahya isn't even original - almost every single one of his anti-evolution diatribes have been culled practically verbatim from the Protestant fundamentalist Christian creationists - including Kent Hovind, Duane Gish, Ken Ham, etc. HY even favorably quotes Jonathan Wells - who's an ordained minister of the cult that follows Sun Myung Moon!!! Pseudoscience makes strange bedfellows.4. On the use of pseudonyms on Internet boards. What a crock. The vast majority of posters - theist or non-theist - use pseudonyms. I no longer post either my real name OR my email address on public fora after receiving several death threats, attempted email "bombs", a hack on my corporate website which cost several thousand dollars to repair, and literally hundreds of religious spam messages (and oddly, invitations to join porn sites and purchase sexual toys over the Internet - go figure how THAT little juxtaposition on mailing lists happened). As to the two particular usernames I use, they follow fairly standard conventions - both are related to my avocation and profession. Quetzal refers to Pharomachrus mocino. My company was instrumental in halting illegal woodcutting in one cloud forest (and turning it into a nature preserve) that was the rapidly vanishing home of this bird, and at another site was able to document (and film!) nesting behavior and population dynamics that had never been observed in this incredibly rare species. Morpho (from iidb) refers to Morpho peleides, a signature species from where my company operates - one of the most beautiful butterflies in the world - and the logo of my company.If your correspondent is that concerned with your association with "evil atheist demon-worshippers" or whatever he thinks the problem is - feel free to invite his participation in this forum.In the meantime, Andya, you need to decide whether it is or is not in your long-term interest to associate or accept help from the dar al-harb.

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Originally posted by Karl:
In particular, Christianity's big scientific stumbling block is the OT. Accept it literally, the way it was meant to be taken, and you bumb heads with science.

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Big assumption there. Was it the "way it was meant to be taken?". Many Christian theologians, and equally Jewish ones, do not think so.

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Within the mind-set of the authors, I think it is true that it was meant to be taken literally. This, in the same sense that Greek myths were meant to be taken as true. I think it was meant to be a real story about real events, some of them magical. This isn't necessarily what fundamentalists consider literal. I don't believe that the authors of the Bible made many distinctions between what we would call allegory, metaphor and fact. These distinctions don't really show up until the Greek philosophers.Yeah, my statement was too loose. Either way though, the worldview bumbs heads with science.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com

I don't believe that the authors of the Bible made many distinctions between what we would call allegory, metaphor and fact. Too true. Wish the fundamentalists understood that. And that they certainly had no concept of what science is.

Thank you all. Although I have never met any of you in person you guys are currently the only help I can get. Plus the great help from Allah by showing me EvC (indirectly, of course). I will comment one on one.John:

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Your friends have got you here, IMOH. Evolution does undermine the rationality of belief in God. Large parts of science do that in fact. I know some people here disagree. Also, remember that I am talking from a perspective of christianity vs. science. I am not entirely sure how Islam treats such things. In particular, Christianity's big scientific stumbling block is the OT. Accept it literally, the way it was meant to be taken, and you bumb heads with science. I know that Islam accepts the OT as scripture but I am not sure how it fits into the grand scheme of things.

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You may have noticed in my unfortunate forays into the Bible forums that Islam accepts the Torah (not the whole OT) and Gospels (not the whole NT) as holy scripture, but the Jews and Christians were not careful with the original texts, thereby both lost their credibilities.

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To help you understand? Yes. Strengthen your belief in God? This isn't really on my mind when we talk science. And finally, the truth about God isn't repugnant to me. Its the lies parading as truth that get my goat.

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No problem with that. I am not here to actively proselytizing Islam either. Passively, maybe. But I won't use lies.

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Nope. I help, or try, because I believe the best answer is evolution. It has nothing to do with God.

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Thanks. You're always enjoyable here.

Mammuthus,
Although 'hai' uses English his e-mail hints that he's (my suspicion that 'hai' is a male) his words and other e-mails strongly remind me of Catur Sriherwanto, the translator of 'Evolution Deceit' into Indonesian and a scientist working for the Indonesian Dept. of Agriculture improving (evolving) teak for plantations. As I have told you, atheism is considered evil in Indonesia; so I suppose if 'hai' uses the argumentum ad atheism to stop me tearing Harun Yahya to bits, he is trying to appeal to the all-Indonesian fear of being atheist in me. He pointed out that Dawkins the arch-evolutionist is also hostile to religion, and Darwin could not keep even a deistic faith after discovering the principles of evolution.

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M: This sentence makes no sense. The goal of science is not to "believe more in god". You should suggest they first figure out what science is before they rush off with these bizarre conspiracy theories.

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Actually in the Muslim world there is a conviction that Allah had revealed His Word in the Qur'an and in nature also. The Qur'an is written for the believing, while His word in nature is for all humans to see and examine. As I see it you've been reading His words in old mammoth DNA . Our religious leaders encourage young Muslims to think that being a scientist is a respectable profession (however, this appeal never work and 'the Muslim scientist' remains a rare species). So in this context I can say that Muslims believe that studying nature can lead to strangthening the belief in God. However, 'hai' seem to force me into thinking that evolution and theism can never be reconciled. Now I have wild thoughts about Allah planting His signs in nature to force scientists to believe that he does not exist... at least that is what I think of the effects of Harun Yahya and 'hai' to me.

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Andya, you seem to be having lots of battles outside the EvC forums.

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Maybe. If you guys battle local creationists then my battle is international (I'm in Jakarta, those guys in Turkey). Can I get a special status or anything? [just kidding]

Quetzal,Among the guys here (I couldn't even call you 'atheists' for my mind had been filled with propaganda that made the word too loaded with pejorative meanings--but you are among the best people I found so far, certainly better than some fundamnetalist Christians) you have always been the first to answer me, and you even offered your help to my brother Delshad; therefore I am glad that you went the trouble serving Harun Yahya for that anthropologist's lunch over at IIDB. I believe that somehow Allah send you as my help (although I think you don't). THANK YOU.About my help, my motive for asking is to get unbiased peer-review. I tried to get help from real Muslim scientists but not many are biologists, and among them not many are particluarly interested in the evolution/creation debate. My skills are limited and I need professional assessment on my rebuttals. So I turn to EvC.About the relation of science and God for Muslims, see response to Mammuthus. Personally I believe that Allah creates through evolution. Apparently the guys defending Harun Yahya disagrees and they want me to go to heaven their way... fundamnetalists. You respect my belief and that is why I don't have problems here. As long as good science is involved, it does not matter if I am talking to Christians, Jews, atheists, or Muslims. They all read the same signs of Allah in nature, so there cannot be a major contradiction among them.Anyway, since Harun Yahya co. is also receiving help from non-Muslims (ICR, DI, etc.) I will not be hesitant to do the same.Thanks a lot Quetzal.

Anyway, tomorrow is the start of Ramadhan, the fasting month. We Muslims will refrain from eating, drinking, and having sexual intercourse from sunrise to sunset for a month. A local custom here among Muslims is that we seek forgiveness from our acquaintances the last day before Ramadhan. Allah will forgive our offenses to Him if we observe the fasting month, but forgiveness from our sins to other people can only be obtained from those people. Therefore, if I had done anything that offended anybody in EvC: Percy, Moose, Quetzal, John, Mammuthus, TB, Peter, SLPx, P.Borger, Schraf, Gene90, Mark24, Nos482, Delshad, Budikka, Fred Williams, and others I cannot remember right now (sorry!), I ask you for forgiveness.Peace to all of you!

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Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
Anyway, tomorrow is the start of Ramadhan, the fasting month. We Muslims will refrain from eating, drinking, and having sexual intercourse from sunrise to sunset for a month. A local custom here among Muslims is that we seek forgiveness from our acquaintances the last day before Ramadhan. Allah will forgive our offenses to Him if we observe the fasting month, but forgiveness from our sins to other people can only be obtained from those people. Therefore, if I had done anything that offended anybody in EvC: Percy, Moose, Quetzal, John, Mammuthus, TB, Peter, SLPx, P.Borger, Schraf, Gene90, Mark24, Nos482, Delshad, Budikka, Fred Williams, and others I cannot remember right now (sorry!), I ask you for forgiveness.

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Peace to all of you!

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Peace to you to Andya...and you have never offended me in the least. I always enjoy reading your posts and interacting with you.Best wishes,
Mammuthus

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
Mammuthus,
Although 'hai' uses English his e-mail hints that he's (my suspicion that 'hai' is a male) his words and other e-mails strongly remind me of Catur Sriherwanto, the translator of 'Evolution Deceit' into Indonesian and a scientist working for the Indonesian Dept. of Agriculture improving (evolving) teak for plantations. As I have told you, atheism is considered evil in Indonesia; so I suppose if 'hai' uses the argumentum ad atheism to stop me tearing Harun Yahya to bits, he is trying to appeal to the all-Indonesian fear of being atheist in me. He pointed out that Dawkins the arch-evolutionist is also hostile to religion, and Darwin could not keep even a deistic faith after discovering the principles of evolution.
*****************************++I would still say that is their own personal interpretation and it is because THEY want power over you as all fundamentalists do. Darwin was a christian and beleived in god. Most evolutionary biologists would probably be more like you than like me actually (since I'm atheist). You see evolution as a mechanism used by god and I know others who think the same way regardless of whether they are Muslim, Christian, Jewish etc. Studying evolution and being religious seems to not cause conflict except among the extreme fundamentalists..however, the same fundamentalists also hate womens rights, freedom of speech, believe some ethnic groups are inferior to others and above all, they each claim that they are the ultimate authority on what god says. I would not be swayed by these people if I were you. Being and evolutionist does not make you an atheist by default. I stopped believing in god long before I started studying biology.A:
Actually in the Muslim world there is a conviction that Allah had revealed His Word in the Qur'an and in nature also. The Qur'an is written for the believing, while His word in nature is for all humans to see and examine. As I see it you've been reading His words in old mammoth DNA .M: My mammoths are being rather resistant to reading the last couple of months A:
Our religious leaders encourage young Muslims to think that being a scientist is a respectable profession (however, this appeal never work and 'the Muslim scientist' remains a rare species). So in this context I can say that Muslims believe that studying nature can lead to strangthening the belief in God.M: Your last paragraph would make a wonderful counterargument to what your opposition is proposing. They either have to claim that they know more than your religious leaders or they have to admit they are wrong.A:
However, 'hai' seem to force me into thinking that evolution and theism can never be reconciled. Now I have wild thoughts about Allah planting His signs in nature to force scientists to believe that he does not exist... at least that is what I think of the effects of Harun Yahya and 'hai' to me.M: That sounds like their desired effect...make you doubt yourself, claim that you are all alone, and claim they have the ultimate authority..I hope you will not be swayed by that.A:
Maybe. If you guys battle local creationists then my battle is international (I'm in Jakarta, those guys in Turkey). Can I get a special status or anything? [just kidding]M: Hey that's true...maybe there could be a medal for those who battle the most creationists on the most sites Maybe a free copy of the Darwin Awards Best wishes,
Mammuthus

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
[B]You may have noticed in my unfortunate forays into the Bible forums that Islam accepts the Torah (not the whole OT) and Gospels (not the whole NT) as holy scripture, but the Jews and Christians were not careful with the original texts, thereby both lost their credibilities.[/quote]Well, clears things up for me! It is amazing what the right tiny piece of information can do.I don't remember you mentioning this when you were debating with Wordswordsman. I think it could have been used to your advantage.

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Thanks. You're always enjoyable here.

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Thank you. I am always happy to hear from you as well.------------------
http://www.hells-handmaiden.com