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Author | Topic: Moral Relativism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Majorsmiley Inactive Member |
Is Moral Relativism a valid View. Take the statement "What is true for you is not true for me." Your thoughts please.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1716 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
That's not moral relativism. That sounds like a strawman.
Moral relativism would be "There exists no source of moral absolutes." In the absence of such sources, human societies must use their judgement to arrive at rules everyone can live by that allow for the greatest quality of life for all members. I find that to be a highly valid view, and much more useful than arguing over the moral views of non-existent deities.
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Paul Inactive Member |
Moral relativism would be "There exists no source of moral absolutes." LOL, yeah ok Crash. Moral relativism is the view that moral standards are grounded only in social custom. This view makes it very convenient for some of the worlds cultures to practice customs such as genital mutilation, slavery etc. etc. You call this a highly valid view? One that will allow for the greatest quality of life for all members? Respectfully, Paul
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1716 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
You call this a highly valid view? One that will allow for the greatest quality of life for all members? Those cultures commit those atrocities because they believe a god who is the source of their morality commands them to do it. If they were relativist, they could step back and say "Hrm, is female genital mutilation really such a good idea?" I'd say that moral absolutism is the greater danger because it means that moral views that are wrong can't be changed. Looks like you overlooked the log in your own eye on this one.
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Mister Pamboli Member (Idle past 7826 days) Posts: 634 From: Washington, USA Joined: |
quote:Can you give some examples of this? Can you point us to any cultures which practice genital mutilitation or slavery and which also believe that moral standards are grounded only in social custom? Governor John Hammond in 1853 wrote in Slavery is not a sin:I think, then, I may safely conclude, and I firmly believe, that American Slavery is not only not a sin, but especially commanded by God through Moses, and approved by Christ through his apostles. And here I might close its defence; for what God ordains, and Christ sanctifies, should surely command the respect and toleration of man. But I fear there has grown up in our time a transcendental religion, which is throwing even transcendental philosophy into the shade--a religion too pure and elevated for the Bible; which seeks to erect among men a higher standard of morals than the Almighty has revealed, or our Saviour preached; Hammond's argument, as it proceeds, is exactly the opposite to yours. He defends slavery on the grounds of the purest moral abolutism, and claims that moral relativism will lead from that path. I suspect your view is somewhat less than highly valid, when it's counterexamples are expressed with such forceful clarity.
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Majorsmiley Inactive Member |
If they were relativist, they could step back and say "Hrm, is female genital mutilation really such a good idea?" Uh no, relativism would say "that's acceptable for them, but it's not acceptable to me so I'm not going to do it" Once you apply any personal morals to someone else, you are no longer a relativist.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1716 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Uh no, relativism would say "that's acceptable for them, but it's not acceptable to me so I'm not going to do it" Once you apply any personal morals to someone else, you are no longer a relativist. Um, I think you're confusing moral relativism with a straw man, likely propagated by your church or something. Anyway, in my example, it was the society itself who was determining their own morals. I wasn't applying my personal morality, just demonstration how moral relativism lets one do the right thing without being straitjacketed by inconsistent, authoritarian beliefs. It doesn't mean there's no right and wrong; moral relativism means that societites determine their own morals. I'm free to judge their morals based on the practical results, not on their agreement with my god or whatever.
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Paul Inactive Member |
Can you give some examples of this? Can you point us to any cultures which practice genital mutilitation or slavery Page not found - Amnesty International 新先锋影音兔女郎久久看看,日本十八禁蜜芽tv网站,电影动漫一区欧美另类小说,日韩制服国产中文第一区,色综合a怡红院怡红院首页,HEYZO专区无码综合,欧美mv在线天堂mv免费观看,80s电影天堂亚洲毛片,国语高清自产拍免费观看,无码中文字幕加勒比高清
Governor John Hammond in 1853 wrote in Slavery is not a sin: Would you have an example that would be a little more current?... As you would know, Hammond's pro slavery argument came in the middle of a failing political career and was a much needed tool in his rise to the United States Senate in 1857. With close to 400,000 slaves in South Carolina at that time, his stance helped to secure that seat. As well, where in my post did I say salvery was a sin? Mr. P are you saying that you do in fact believe in God and are willing to use his word to justify certain things? If so, I must admit that your approach in this forum is sometimes confusing. Please refrain from using these outdated examples and stay on topic. "God said it was ok" doesn't cut it at the moment, and of course for you, if a non-believer, shouldn't at any time. For the world to survive and societies to exist and intertwine in the centuries ahead, a global core set of values must be adopted. The many abhoring, and some dangerous, customs of many societies practiced under the claim of "cultural variation", must come to a stop in our modern world. The choice to be a servant is an individuals right. Forcing someone to serve, or do anything, against their will or what is right, is wrong. Right is not always in the folkways. Long live ideal values. Respectfully, Paul
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1716 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
As well, where in my post did I say salvery was a sin? You lumped it in with female genital mutilation, so we just assumed. Unless you hold FGM up as acceptable, moral behavior? It does seem to happen most frequently (according to the links you provided, which I don't dispute) in cultures who are the most morally absolutist.
For the world to survive and societies to exist and intertwine in the centuries ahead, a global core set of values must be adopted. The many abhoring, and some dangerous, customs of many societies practiced under the claim of "cultural variation", must come to a stop in our modern world. See, as a relativist, I can agree with this. But as a relativist I don't believe we need some absolute moral authority to dictate those terms - especially if there's no reason to believe that authority even exists. Humans are more than capable of coming to a consensus of acceptable behavior that promotes the freedom and dignity of all to the greatest degree possible. In this country, we call this process "democracy". [This message has been edited by crashfrog, 05-20-2003]
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Mister Pamboli Member (Idle past 7826 days) Posts: 634 From: Washington, USA Joined: |
I notice you truncated my question. It was ...
Can you point us to any cultures which practice genital mutilitation or slavery and which also believe that moral standards are grounded only in social custom? Giving examples of cultures which practice genital mutilation or slavery only covers the first clause, with which I imagine no reasonably well-informed person could disagree anyway. For now, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and regard it an oversight. I am still waiting for an example of a society where moral standards are grounded only in social custom and where these customs are practised.quote:You didn't, nor did I suggest you had. You claimed that moral relativism makes it very convenient for some of the worlds cultures to practice slavery. My challenge was to show that this is not true. My quotation gave a counter example - moral relativism being claimed as an enemy of slavery and moral absolutism as a doctrine that made it convenient to practice the custom.quote:I address each issue as it arises examples or counterexamples, and lines of reasoning as appropriate. I am not here to publish a personal credo, but I suspect its outlines may be discerned here and there. quote:Outdated examples? You think an example from a phase of history which, to this very day, has deep social repercussions, is out of date? Off topic? How can it be off topic to attack your unsupported claims by providing disproving evidence? Or is it just off topic to disagree with you?quote:I'm confused. Did you think I was quoting the odious Hammond in order to support him? You could hardly be more wrong. Follow this carefully ... You claimed that moral relativism made it convenient to practice slavery. I quoted Hammond to show that the opposite is true - that in a real society, really practising slavery, moral relativism was seen as inconvenient to slavery. It's opposite, moral absolutism, was held to support it. Got it?quote:Why? And who would be defining the global core set? You? quote:What are you talking about? What is practised under a claim of cultural variation? I would have thought slavery and genital mutilation, to take your favourite examples, were practised under a claim of cultural invariation. People often do these things because they believe they are sanctioned by a core set of values, generally God-given, frequently absolute. The last thing social traditionalists typically want is people coming in to their society from outside and creating a confusion of values.quote:Sounds very sensible. I wish more Christians agreed with you. quote:I have no idea what this means.
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Percy Member Posts: 22929 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 7.2 |
Paul writes:
Governor John Hammond in 1853 wrote in Slavery is not a sin: Would you have an example that would be a little more current?... As you would know, Hammond's pro slavery argument came in the middle of a failing political career and was a much needed tool in his rise to the United States Senate in 1857. With close to 400,000 slaves in South Carolina at that time, his stance helped to secure that seat.
Aren't the timeframe and Hammond's political rationale beside the point? Your claim was that moral relativism makes it convenient for some cultures to justify such evils as slavery, and Mister Pamboli was only providing an example of how easy it is for moral absolutism to do the same. What this illustrates is the ingenuity of man in using his underlying beliefs to justify whatever he feels needs justifying, be it slavery, genocide, torture, theft, etc. There certainly seem no grounds to conclude that either relativism or absolutism lead inevitably to evil. --Percy
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Majorsmiley Inactive Member |
quote:Your speculative and snide remarks undermine and inhibit your credibility. I suggest you refrain if you want to be taken seriously. quote:You can use any example you want but the premise remains the same. Based on relativism in a society you cannot say that such things as slavery, apartheid, communism,imperialism,or killing baby girls is wrong. You cannot make judgements against societies. You have to remain neutral like Switzerland.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1716 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Your speculative and snide remarks undermine and inhibit your credibility. I suggest you refrain if you want to be taken seriously. Weak, dude. Let me ask you then - what research did you do to determine the actual beliefs and positions of moral relativists? Or did somebody just tell you what "moral relativism" means? My church did the same to me, so I hazarded a guess. No matter who misinformed you (or if you came up with it yourself), you're in error about what moral relativism means. it simply means that there is no absolute source of morals. It says nothing about my ability to judge the morals of others. Let me ask you this - why would any reasonable person advance a view that any and all activites, no matter their harm to persons, are acceptable? But of course, from your tone I imagine you don't believe any moral relativists to be reasonable people. If you're going to argue straw men it's your credibility that is on the line, not mine.
You cannot make judgements against societies. You have to remain neutral like Switzerland. To the contrary. You're laboring under a major misapprehension of moral relativism. It simply says that there is no absolute source of moral codes. That doesn't mean that there are no universal moral codes. It just means it's meaningless to say that "my morals are universal because they're from god."
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Mister Pamboli Member (Idle past 7826 days) Posts: 634 From: Washington, USA Joined: |
quote:The trouble with this line of argument is, ironically, that moral relativism is rarely absolute. Many people have a strong morality of absolutes, and a much more relativistic view of issues which fall outwith those absolutes. On further examination those absolutes may themselves be subject to secondary qualifying relativistic judgements. For example, I may strongly object to killing new born children, but support the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima, but only support nuclear attacks in pursuance of a just war, and only define a just war in terms of ... yadayadayada ... we are back to moral relativism. Much moral relativism originates from the belief that such secondary qualifications are inevitable in any supposedly absolute moral code - and from the supposed observation that no society has actually managed to sustain an absolute moral code without such qualifications, and that such qualifications are themselves relativistic. For example, with the exception of a number of absolutist pacifists, most Christians hold a highly qualified view of the injunction of Jesus to resist no evil. The interpretation of what this means will typically be highly relativistic, based on social and cultural traditions amongst other things. There remains a third way which has been ignored here to an extent, which is the possibility of a meta-ethical stance. There are aspects of this in the Bible, of course, as in Jesus enunciation of the Golden Rule "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them." Such meta-ethical positions, including Kant's categorical imperative, bridge the gap to a certain extent between moral relativism and moral absolutism. As for judging societies, I'm not sure how it could be done, except in informal chat, as societies are themselves complex, ever changing, emergent properties of the interactions of individuals.
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Rrhain Member (Idle past 256 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Mister Pamboli asks:
quote: Would you accept the United States? We know that it, as a culture, practices genital mutilation, but I'm not sure if you would agree that it believes that moral standards are grounded only in social custom (though with the appropriate caveat "that moral relativism is rarely absolute," as you state in a later post.) It would seem to come close, but I'm not sure what you would accept as a country that engages in "moral relativism." ------------------Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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