Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Knowing an upcoming disaster, what to do?
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 1 of 23 (512521)
06-18-2009 5:53 PM


Recently, a 50 year old time capsule was openned up at a local elementary school. The capsule was suppose to contain pictures, letters, and other messages school children at the time wanted to give to school children 50 years in their future. The ceremony was quite lively as many authors of those messages (now adults) attended.
While other school children received pictures and letters, my nephew got a paper filled with seemingly random numbers. Bored with the message, he gave it to me. That night as I was glancing through the numbers, a sequence of numbers caught my attention. It read 91101. Followed it was the number 2996. A quick search on the internet turned out that 2996 people died on september 11th of 2001. Captivated by this "coincidence", I spent the rest of the night looking through and searching on the internet the dates and number of deaths of written on the paper. By the morning, I was able to pick out a definite pattern of dates and number of deaths of every major disaster world wide in the last 50 years.
Between these dates and numbers of casualties were seemingly random numbers that I, at the time, hadn't figured out what they meant yet. In order to see if this piece of paper indeed could predict the future, I began to monitor the news for what the paper predicts as the next major disaster. Incredibly enough, there was a disaster on that exact date where that exact number of people perished. What's more, it occurred to me that those random numbers between the dates were actually GPS coordinates.
This brings me to the crux of the matter. The last date shown on the message is 2 days from now. There's no number of death and there's no GPS coordinates. I have to assume that this upcoming disaster will happen everywhere and that it will affect everyone.
When I was about 20, I turned into an atheist after spending all my life as a devout fundamentalist christian. Now that I am faced with my own mortality as well as the mortality of every other human being on Earth, should I turn back to god or should I continue to deny god's existence? Will "Judgement Day" be a planned event meant as a wakeup call for all of us or will it just be an event, one of many in the universe?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 06-18-2009 7:40 PM Taz has replied
 Message 6 by Rrhain, posted 06-19-2009 1:58 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 06-19-2009 3:07 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 8 by Brian, posted 06-19-2009 3:18 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 14 by onifre, posted 06-19-2009 10:04 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 19 by cavediver, posted 06-19-2009 7:00 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 20 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-19-2009 9:23 PM Taz has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 23 (512539)
06-18-2009 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
06-18-2009 5:53 PM


Where to put this?
Ok, Taz, where the heck should this go?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 06-18-2009 5:53 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Taz, posted 06-18-2009 7:50 PM AdminNosy has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 3 of 23 (512543)
06-18-2009 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNosy
06-18-2009 7:40 PM


Re: Where to put this?
Concentrate on the last paragraph and tell me where you think it should go.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 06-18-2009 7:40 PM AdminNosy has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 4 of 23 (512547)
06-18-2009 8:39 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 5 of 23 (512550)
06-18-2009 9:13 PM


The reason I brought this topic up is death does have a profound impact on people. Despite my strong atheism and skepticism, I have recently begun to wish there is a god and there is an afterlife. The reason for my sudden doubt in my non-faith is I've recently lost a life long friend (if people didn't know any better, they'd think we were a gay married couple) due to a gun shot wound. His death has left a hole in my life. I guess my instinct is to try to fill the void with spirituality.
The world's most famous atheist, Richard Dawkins, have said many times now that he plans to have cameras and plenty of witnesses around his death bed in order to avoid a rumour after his death that he'd converted right before his death. Why? Believers have for centuries been saying that atheists will eventually convert when staring death in the eyes.
I bring to the table an even bigger question. For our resident atheists, will you use spirituality as a mean to comfort when faced with total planetary annihilation?

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Stile, posted 06-19-2009 8:52 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 21 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-19-2009 9:43 PM Taz has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 6 of 23 (512561)
06-19-2009 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
06-18-2009 5:53 PM


OK...so you've rehashed the plot of Knowing. Assuming you aren't also invoking everything else about that movie, why would predestination equate to divinity? Why does an event's inevitability necessarily mean it was consciously and deliberately planned?
In short, why would this have any effect upon your belief state, whether that be belief or non-belief?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 06-18-2009 5:53 PM Taz has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 23 (512566)
06-19-2009 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
06-18-2009 5:53 PM


Knowledge, Actions, and reactions
Taz writes:
This brings me to the crux of the matter. The last date shown on the message is 2 days from now. There's no number of death and there's no GPS coordinates. I have to assume that this upcoming disaster will happen everywhere and that it will affect everyone.
All of us will at some point face death. Does it matter whether it is a shared experience (happening to everyone at the same time) or whether we all go at our predestined time? I often wonder what the atmosphere must be like on a plane about to crash, when everyone in the cabin is either wailing, praying loudly, or closing their eyes and plugging their ears. I beleieve that IF God exists, He understands everyone and will not discriminate based soley on whether people believe in Him or not. That being said, I recognize that my personal belief does not answer your question.
Taz writes:
When I was about 20, I turned into an atheist after spending all my life as a devout fundamentalist christian. Now that I am faced with my own mortality as well as the mortality of every other human being on Earth, should I turn back to god or should I continue to deny god's existence? Will "Judgement Day" be a planned event meant as a wakeup call for all of us or will it just be an event, one of many in the universe?
Ask yourself if God exists, would He or She care whether or not you turned "back" to Him/Her? I believe that God is more concerned in our day to day behavior and how we treat our fellow humans (and other creatures). Lets say, for the sake of argument, that God does not exist. Would that or should that change our daily behavior and exercise of conscience? So many questions, grasshopper...and so many more to follow
Taz writes:
The reason I brought this topic up is death does have a profound impact on people. Despite my strong atheism and skepticism, I have recently begun to wish there is a god and there is an afterlife. The reason for my sudden doubt in my non-faith is I've recently lost a life long friend (if people didn't know any better, they'd think we were a gay married couple) due to a gun shot wound. His death has left a hole in my life. I guess my instinct is to try to fill the void with spirituality.
I am sorry to hear that you lost your dear friend. Death does have a profound impact. None of us really know what happens after death, so the most logical thing to do is to make the most of the life that we have..in honor of those we love both here and in eternity. I believe that anything kind, good and loving should exist through eternity, even if only in other peoples memories and thoughts.
Rrhain writes:
why would predestination equate to divinity? Why does an event's inevitability necessarily mean it was consciously and deliberately planned?
Good question. Perhaps nothing is planned and everything is basically random. The only thing we feel we have control over is our own choices and behaviors.
Only in the movies have I seen such a scenario. Our collective human imagination prods us into asking more questions. What would we do? How would we know for sure? If we were uncertain, and did not react by playing Paul Revere, would we feel forever guilty?
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : More blank lines. I like space around quote boxes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 06-18-2009 5:53 PM Taz has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 8 of 23 (512567)
06-19-2009 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
06-18-2009 5:53 PM


An obvious problem...
should I turn back to god or should I continue to deny god's existence?
The thing is, of all the gods in the celestial zoo of deities which one should we 'turn' to?
The thing about the evil God of the Bible is that you cannot just suddenly start believing in Him as a sort of insurance policy, this monster knows what is in your heart and will know your reasons for turning to Him. If your conversion is not genuine then I'm afraid this ghoul will toss you into the Pit.
Then there's also the possibility that the real god will be ticked off at you worshipping the fictional god of the Bible and toast you as well.
This scenario is as flawed as Pascal's wee bet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 06-18-2009 5:53 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 9 of 23 (512568)
06-19-2009 3:38 AM


I think you guys misunderstood me.
My recent doubt in my non-belief in a deity has nothing to do with the fear of hell fire. I've lived my life as best as I could based on my conscience. If that's not good enough for god (whatever deity it may be) simply because I've refused to make animal sacrifice or kill every man, woman, and child of a sinful city like Vegas, I don't want to have anything to do with that god.
The question started popping up in my head because there's this thing in my head that keeps wanting to meet my friend again. You could say I'm in the depression stage.
Anyway, the point of this thread is about you guys, too. Are you going to seek comfort in spirituality if you're faced with death or total annihilation?
Edited by Taz, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Brian, posted 06-19-2009 3:56 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 11 by Huntard, posted 06-19-2009 4:03 AM Taz has not replied
 Message 12 by Shield, posted 06-19-2009 5:20 AM Taz has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 10 of 23 (512569)
06-19-2009 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Taz
06-19-2009 3:38 AM


Are you going to seek comfort in spirituality if you're faced with death or total annihilation?
Why seek comfort in something I don't believe in?
My 'comfort' will be the fact that once I die there will be nothing, therefore there is nothing to worry about.
You die, cease to exist, why worry, be happy!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Taz, posted 06-19-2009 3:38 AM Taz has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 11 of 23 (512570)
06-19-2009 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Taz
06-19-2009 3:38 AM


Taz writes:
Anyway, the point of this thread is about you guys, too. Are you going to seek comfort in spirituality if you're faced with death or total annihilation?
Right now, I'd say no. I'd also say that it's completely impossible to make such a judgement when you aren't facing death or total annihilation.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Taz, posted 06-19-2009 3:38 AM Taz has not replied

  
Shield
Member (Idle past 2862 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 12 of 23 (512572)
06-19-2009 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Taz
06-19-2009 3:38 AM


Taz writes:
Anyway, the point of this thread is about you guys, too. Are you going to seek comfort in spirituality if you're faced with death or total annihilation?
I cannot say for sure untill i die, but i do not think so.
When people close to me have died in the past i definately did not turn to any god, rather i got really mad when people were telling me crap like "He/she is in a better place now" or "She/he is probably sitting on a cloud looking down on us".
Bullshit.
However, my use of psychedelics have led me to encounter "things" i cannot fathom, things that made me doubt my atheist standpoint.
I dont think theres any gods or spirits or anything like that, maybe reincarnation is a natural mechanism, who knows? I surdenly dont, and i do like thinking about the endless possibilities of whats going to happen when you die, though most likely, nothing will happen, you just die.
And i am at peace with that.
Mark Twain writes:
I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Taz, posted 06-19-2009 3:38 AM Taz has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 13 of 23 (512583)
06-19-2009 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Taz
06-18-2009 9:13 PM


I will use spirituality
Taz writes:
Despite my strong atheism and skepticism, I have recently begun to wish there is a god and there is an afterlife.
I've personally never stopped wishing such a thing. There's nothing wrong with wishing, in fact there's many benefits like "hope" and striving forward with a positive drive.
However, I am very careful about constantly reminding myself that this is indeed, just a wish. There currently is no known, validated evidence to promote confidence for such a wish being a part of reality. This present fact restricts me from ever using this wish as a basis for any decisions that are above "just for fun" on my importance scale.
In fact, I find it very strange if someone existed who didn't "wish" (in the sense of "it would be nice if it were true") that there was some benevolent being watching and caring about each and every one of us. I don't see a downside to such a thing.
For our resident atheists, will you use spirituality as a mean to comfort when faced with total planetary annihilation?
I most certainly will. But, well, my use of the term "spirituality" has nothing to do with "the God of the Bible" or anything specifically relating to the supernatural (although this is not specifically excluded, either). My use of the term spirituality is more related to anything that can provide an inner sense of peace and comfort that is controlled (consciously or not) by one's own mind.
In this sense, merely thinking of things that are comforting (like, perhaps, a serene beach scene with birds in the background) is spirituality. This may or may not fit in the with the popular definition of the term. But I fail to see how there is any practical difference.
Along these lines, when faced with impending doom, I most certainly will make use of spirituality to ensure that I can provide myself with a sense of hope and calm. This will allow me to assess the situation and continue to do whatever it is I actually can in order to help the situation for my loved ones and myself in any way possible. What I will not be doing is active prayer of any form, including focusing on only asking/waiting for some being to come and save me. Time spent soley repenting or waiting on a beneficial future is time wasted that could be spent on doing something that may actually help bring about that same beneficial future. I can wish/hope/ask-for-help-from-anyone-who-can-hear-my-thoughts in the back of my mind while I'm actually doing something that may have an impact.
If this world has taught us anything, it's that the only thing that affects the physical nature of this universe is other things that are physical in nature. An important physical event such as "impending death for everyone on the planet" is not the time to ignore such facts and suddenly rely exclusively on spirituality, it's the time to use the facts we have to do what we can. Whenever (if-ever...) I am confronted with an important spiritual-only event is the only time I will ignore the physical and focus the majority of my resources on spiritual aspects.
But yes, I will use spirituality as a tool to prevent myself from being shocked or paralyzed with fear. This is an area where we can use irrationality to prevent 'giving up' in a situation where rationality would tell us there is no chance. Even if there actually is no chance, I'd rather go fighting and facing my demise than sitting and waiting while "rationally" giving up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Taz, posted 06-18-2009 9:13 PM Taz has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 14 of 23 (512594)
06-19-2009 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
06-18-2009 5:53 PM


Hi Taz. First, sorry about your friend.
Now that I am faced with my own mortality as well as the mortality of every other human being on Earth, should I turn back to god or should I continue to deny god's existence?
It seems from this statement that you're not claiming God doesn't exist, or that there is no evidence to support any claims of God, it just seems like you're making a personal rejection of something you still believe is there.
"Should I continue to deny or turn back to him"...In both scenarios there is still a Him that exists. In other words, I, as an atheist, see nothing to "turn back to." I see made up stories about celestial god(s), none more relevant than the other.
You don't seem to lean this way. At least not by these statements. Perhaps deep down there is still a soft spot that believes God is there?
Will "Judgement Day" be a planned event meant as a wakeup call for all of us or will it just be an event, one of many in the universe?
To me "judgement day" is a mythological story, one of many, found in religious texts.
Now, if the question is, will I, as an atheist turn to some higher power when facing my, or all of our, death? Well, maybe. Who knows. How does the saying go, "there are no atheist in a fox hole."
Death is scary. It's the final stage of life. And deep down, most people understand that it's basically the end of all you know and understand, and I think that even the most faithful have a huge doubt about an afterlife.
- Oni

Petition to Bailout Comedy The Laugh Factory is imploring Congress to immediately fund what owner Jamie Masada calls an "Economic Cheer-Up." If Congress fails to act quickly, the Laugh Factory comedians are planning to march to Washington and plea to President Obama.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taz, posted 06-18-2009 5:53 PM Taz has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 15 of 23 (512609)
06-19-2009 11:35 AM


Isn't there that story of the Guy in France who dies on the operation table in the hospital, and while i was dead remained conscious, moved around as if a ghost threw the room for a moment and then went to meet God, and in his presence he felt an immense sentiment of love as he had never experienced before. Finally was brought back to life and came back in his body.
I'll agree all this is pretty the classic 'afterlife' experience. But the rest is rather interesting.
When he woke up after the operation, he told about his experience to his doctor. Of course, the doctor did not believe him, stating that it was not the first time one of his patients told similar stories. He said that he thought there was probably some kind of reaction in the brain which produced these experiences.
But the guy told him something that blew the doctor away: while he was flotting in the room, he found himself under the operation table where he noticed that there was a plate under it, with information the table such as the year of fabrication, company, etc. The guy told him about this since he remembered some of the information that was o nthat plate. The doctor wasn't even aware that such a plate existed, but when he went to see it with the patient, it turned out to be exactly how he had described it. Both became christians after this incident. I think the guy wrote a book, but it's probably in french.
The question I keep askign myself when I hear such stories is this one:
- Is there a scientific explanation for such experiences ? As in is there a reaction in the brain etc. ?
- If there is indeed a reaction in the brain who could explain these phenomenon, then how on earth did it developp in an evolutionnary pattern and what is the advantage from a natural selection point of view since it happens only when you are dead ?

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Perdition, posted 06-19-2009 3:49 PM slevesque has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024