Christian Denominations - Heaven and Hell

When it comes to Christian denominations (current or historical) and belief differences, what belief differences make the difference between heaven and hell?Or, in simpler words, what are the bare minimum requirements as to what you can and can not believe to go to heaven in Christianity?edit by commike37: For this topic we're going to assume Biblical inerrancy. Otherwise, this discussion would get nowhere, because every time two Bible verses seemed to contradict itself, we would automatically assume that the Bible contradicts each other and both views are correct, and we couldn't prove anything (let's not go postmodern, shall we, I want to actually accomplish something in this topic). If you want to get into the issue of which Bible we should use (ie: you're Catholic and would like to bring in verses from a book that is only in the Catholic Bible), that's certainly relevant, but this is not a topic to disprove Biblical inerrancy. You could still argue on whether or not a Christian who doesn't believe in Biblical inerrancy would get into heaven, though.{Added blank line between paragraphs. Also added the "Heaven and Hell" part to the title - Adminnemooseus}This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-28-2004 22:58 AMThis message has been edited by commike37, 01-03-2005 18:40 AMThis message has been edited by commike37, 01-04-2005 17:12 AM

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

I do not know much about Christianity, so take this with a grain of salt, but from most of the Christians I've talked to, the key is the belief that Jesus died for our sins and that only through him can we gain redemption.

Well, to be a Christian, you have to believe in the conditions outlined in the Creed. But that has nothing to do, IMHO, with salvation. That's something different and again, IMHO, has little to do with beliefs.I covered a lot of this in the thread Message 1.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Salvation is what it's about. Acknowledging the fact that you've done wrong things in life - and because God is holy, we are only accepted with atonement for sin. That's the basis for the Messiah in the OT.Christ is the LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS as forcasted.We are the righteousness of God - in Christ, made white by Christ and because of his suffering for our sin.Your belief is something else Jar. You promote that nobody even has to believe nor regard Christ. But the NT says the wrath of God abideth on him that believeth not in the only begotten Son of God.He that liveth and believes in Christ, shall never die. He that is dead and believed, though he be dead - yet shall he live.The picture you promote is a posibility we'd all like to believe. For example, I'd sure like all my atheist family to go to heaven. But the reality of the situation is that it is to God's discresion - as to whether someone who doesn't believe, is saved. Certainly the scripture does indeed suggest this is the way it is, therefore no man can boast that he goes to heaven, as we all stand before the judgement seat of Christ. I said this to B2P in his topic, "Justify damnation dammit", and explained that the NT says that we are grafted in through unbelievers - and therefore have no boast anyway, as deeds don't get us into heaven, but God does.So all the sects and conditions of creeds and nominations, is man's device. Man attempting to religiousize what Christ is about. It's all man-doctrine that means nothing.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 12-29-2004 15:50 AM

Well, let's take this from the beginning. I suggest that we start tabula rosa, or as a blank slate. Just so that you know, I'll be backing up what I say with the NIV version of the Bible (not to say you can't use another version, it's just that I want you to know what version I'm using). Let's start with question one:What must an unbeliever do to receive salvation?John 14:6 "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."We've established that the only way to get salvation is through Jesus. But what exactly must we believe about Jesus?1 Corinthians 15:17 "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."It is established that someone must believe in Jesus's death on the cross, his resurrection, and forgiveness of sins resulting from his death and resurrection. I hope we can all have this established, so the question is, where do we want to go from here? What's the next question?

Actually, no you haven't. What you've done is quote mine a small piece from John while ignoring the rest of the message. That's a classic tactic of the Exclusionist Christian sects. It's like John 3 that they also constantly quote out of context.Go back and read John 14 again. It is not about belief, but works. It's once again the same story, by your actions you will be known.Loving Jesus is not based on what you believe, not based on what you profess, it's based on what you do. Look at John 14:15. Again, he is saying, as is repeated throughout the NT, it's what you do that will count.Now a belief in Jesus IS necessary to be a Christian. But not for salvation.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Back up what you say. Bring on your referenced Biblical quotes and let's examine them. So far you have produced none.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You know that everything I said is in the bible. To provide the quotes leaves you none the wiser then.And what's with this smoke warning?

Where be it Mike. We need more than "There be Dragons".You are being asked formally to back up your statements so they can be verified.Please provide the referenced quotes. Mike, Blowing Smoke is making unsupported assertions. It is a comment on the content of your messages.HOWEVER, your sub-title comes very close to a personal attack. While I may criticize your messages, I do not attack you. Such behavior is both against forum policy and childish in the extreme.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

But Jesus is our salvation. Jesus is our righteousness. WHo are you to say this? You've just said that belief in Christ isn't necessary - Now since you don't believe in the biblical prophecies - and disregard the bible - isn't this all your own atheistic philosophy? You've just said that atheism is fine by Christ - even though the wrath of God abideth on him that has not believed. You then say it's fine to be atheist - and deny God's existence and name. Despite God showing how his name and word are kept throughout the whole bible.So does this mean you are an atheist? Because you're saying that people might aswell be. But how can they not acknowledge their sin and be righteouss?Jesus said that people were healed, or that he forgave them, instead of saying "be healed".

What is more childish?I asked you to stop with this smoke nonsense, and you immediately say the same thing in this thread. How mature is that? Is this not acting an ass-hat?Ps. It's annoying digging for quotes when you're not a chapter and verse person, especially when you know that the reader knows darn well what passage you're talking about. So I am in the process of a tedious bible dig.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 12-29-2004 20:25 AM

Bare UNSUPPORTED assertions Mike. You are again asked to back up your assertions. Yes and I have backed up my assertion with referenced quotes from the Bible to support my statement. Please document where I have done that. Bare assertion. Please provide support for that assertion. I showed where the Bible seems to say that. And supported it with referenced sections.It's time you did the same Mike. Nope, I'm a Christian. What? Who? Your point? What does that have to do with the thread?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No Jar - they are facts. It is what is written in the bible. You already know this.John 21;30-31,And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; But these are written, that ye might BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God; And that believing ye might have life through his nameJohn 14;6, Jesus sayeth unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the father, but by me.John 6; 47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth in me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life....53. Then Jesus said unto them....except ye eat the flesh of the son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you,

Well, Mike, now we can discuss them. Let's start with your example: because this is so often quote mined and the full meaning is lost.First look at the next verse. What does it say?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion