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Author Topic:   What would it take?
Brian
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 1 of 49 (25058)
11-30-2002 1:52 PM


A question I am frequently asked is; What would it take for me to accept that God is real.
However, I would like to turn this around and ask the theists:
What would it take to convince you that God does not exist?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by forgiven, posted 11-30-2002 2:11 PM Brian has replied
 Message 34 by Brad McFall, posted 12-22-2002 12:52 AM Brian has not replied
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 10-07-2012 6:29 AM Brian has not replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 49 (25062)
11-30-2002 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
11-30-2002 1:52 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
A question I am frequently asked is; What would it take for me to accept that God is real.
However, I would like to turn this around and ask the theists:
What would it take to convince you that God does not exist?

hmmm... fair question, i think... let's see... for me, if a tornado blew through a junkyard clearing everything from it in its path yet leaving behind my car from high school, a midnight black '67 malibu ss, 396 cu in, 6 deuces, hirsch shifter, perfect condition, perfect running order... that would be pretty good evidence that design can come from chaos i think... but what are the odds? think they're even remotely close to the odds of life being on earth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 11-30-2002 1:52 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 11-30-2002 2:27 PM forgiven has replied
 Message 8 by David unfamous, posted 12-09-2002 6:37 PM forgiven has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 3 of 49 (25066)
11-30-2002 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by forgiven
11-30-2002 2:11 PM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
A question I am frequently asked is; What would it take for me to accept that God is real.
However, I would like to turn this around and ask the theists:
What would it take to convince you that God does not exist?

Brian.
hmmm... fair question, i think... let's see... for me, if a tornado blew through a junkyard clearing everything from it in its path yet leaving behind my car from high school, a midnight black '67 malibu ss, 396 cu in, 6 deuces, hirsch shifter, perfect condition, perfect running order... that would be pretty good evidence that design can come from chaos i think... but what are the odds? think they're even remotely close to the odds of life being on earth?

For this to convince you that there is no god you would have to assume that God didn't send this tornado to construct your old car as a gift for your faith.
------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!
[This message has been edited by Brian Johnston, 11-30-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by forgiven, posted 11-30-2002 2:11 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by forgiven, posted 11-30-2002 9:40 PM Brian has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 49 (25097)
11-30-2002 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brian
11-30-2002 2:27 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
For this to convince you that there is no god you would have to assume that God didn't send this tornado to construct your old car as a gift for your faith.
i don't understand... you asked a question, i answered it... i didn't qualify my answer in any way, merely asked a couple questions at the end

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 11-30-2002 2:27 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Brian, posted 12-01-2002 3:55 AM forgiven has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 5 of 49 (25113)
12-01-2002 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by forgiven
11-30-2002 9:40 PM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
For this to convince you that there is no god you would have to assume that God didn't send this tornado to construct your old car as a gift for your faith.
i don't understand... you asked a question, i answered it... i didn't qualify my answer in any way, merely asked a couple questions at the end

Hi,
Since the question was about what would it take to convince a theist that there is no God, I assumed that you were saying if the tornado can leave your car in its wake then life can arise from chaos without a designer (God).
My apologies for misunderstanding your post.
Best Wishes.
Brian.
------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by forgiven, posted 11-30-2002 9:40 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by forgiven, posted 12-08-2002 12:14 PM Brian has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 49 (25939)
12-08-2002 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Brian
12-01-2002 3:55 AM


hi brian, apologies for the delay but my time is far more limited now than it had been...
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
Since the question was about what would it take to convince a theist that there is no God, I assumed that you were saying if the tornado can leave your car in its wake then life can arise from chaos without a designer (God).
My apologies for misunderstanding your post.
Best Wishes.
Brian.
i'm not sure if you misunderstood my post or not.. i did ask whether or not you had an opinion as to the odds of a car being left, as described, if a tornado blew through a junk yard and how those odds would stack up against the odds of humans existing on earth... iow, which is more likely to occur?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Brian, posted 12-01-2002 3:55 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by robinrohan, posted 12-09-2002 5:42 PM forgiven has replied
 Message 12 by Brian, posted 12-10-2002 5:39 AM forgiven has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 49 (26075)
12-09-2002 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by forgiven
12-08-2002 12:14 PM


I always thought that birth defects--babies being born without arms or legs, etc.--was very good evidence of a lack of design. Obviously most people in this world disagree with me, and I would like to know your reasons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by forgiven, posted 12-08-2002 12:14 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by forgiven, posted 12-09-2002 6:54 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
David unfamous
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 49 (26087)
12-09-2002 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by forgiven
11-30-2002 2:11 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by forgiven:
[B]
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
hmmm... fair question, i think... let's see... for me, if a tornado blew through a junkyard clearing everything from it in its path yet leaving behind my car from high school, a midnight black '67 malibu ss, 396 cu in, 6 deuces, hirsch shifter, perfect condition, perfect running order... that would be pretty good evidence that design can come from chaos i think... but what are the odds? think they're even remotely close to the odds of life being on earth?
That's is so flawed, I can't even think where to start.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by forgiven, posted 11-30-2002 2:11 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by forgiven, posted 12-09-2002 6:49 PM David unfamous has not replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 49 (26088)
12-09-2002 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by David unfamous
12-09-2002 6:37 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by David unfamous:
[B]
quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
hmmm... fair question, i think... let's see... for me, if a tornado blew through a junkyard clearing everything from it in its path yet leaving behind my car from high school, a midnight black '67 malibu ss, 396 cu in, 6 deuces, hirsch shifter, perfect condition, perfect running order... that would be pretty good evidence that design can come from chaos i think... but what are the odds? think they're even remotely close to the odds of life being on earth?
That's is so flawed, I can't even think where to start.

oic... thanks for your input

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by David unfamous, posted 12-09-2002 6:37 PM David unfamous has not replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 49 (26090)
12-09-2002 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by robinrohan
12-09-2002 5:42 PM


quote:
Originally posted by robinrohan:
I always thought that birth defects--babies being born without arms or legs, etc.--was very good evidence of a lack of design. Obviously most people in this world disagree with me, and I would like to know your reasons.
not sure... if you came upon a structure with, say, three walls leaning inward, no roof, half a porch, would you consider that as evidence it wasn't designed and something went wrong? i'd really like someone to address my two questions in my post above, they seem like fair and reasonable ones

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by robinrohan, posted 12-09-2002 5:42 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by David unfamous, posted 12-10-2002 5:27 AM forgiven has replied

  
David unfamous
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 49 (26161)
12-10-2002 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by forgiven
12-09-2002 6:54 PM


Your tornado and junkyard have absolutely no parallel with life and the universe.
Just as the order of life and the universe can be explained through natural processes, your car can only exist through unnatural processes.
It's a pointless and irrelevant analogy.
As for the deformed babies thing, you seem to be suggesting that deformed babies are designed by God on purpose, or badly designed at least.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by forgiven, posted 12-09-2002 6:54 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by forgiven, posted 12-10-2002 7:04 AM David unfamous has not replied
 Message 15 by Ten-sai, posted 12-10-2002 7:41 AM David unfamous has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 12 of 49 (26162)
12-10-2002 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by forgiven
12-08-2002 12:14 PM


quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
hi brian, apologies for the delay but my time is far more limited now than it had been...
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
Since the question was about what would it take to convince a theist that there is no God, I assumed that you were saying if the tornado can leave your car in its wake then life can arise from chaos without a designer (God).
My apologies for misunderstanding your post.
Best Wishes.
Brian.
i'm not sure if you misunderstood my post or not.. i did ask whether or not you had an opinion as to the odds of a car being left, as described, if a tornado blew through a junk yard and how those odds would stack up against the odds of humans existing on earth... iow, which is more likely to occur?

There are so many factors that need to be considered here that havent been addressed, for example, you need to have the correct materials available in the junkyard to have ANY chance of your car being left in the tornado's wake. For the sake of argument we will assume that all components for your car are there. Both scenarios are likely to be in the billions to one category, there is a chance that both COULD happen, even if it is one chance in a billion billion, there is still that chance.
But regarding life on earth, the odds get reduced after each stage of evolution. So, as we know life has evolved, there is no doubt about this, and, as far as I know, no one has seen your car appear after the tornado, or the jumbo jet in the original argument, then life on earth would have the most chance of happening.
As to the question about design and disabled babies, God is meant to be perfect and his designs should also be perfect. If God creates something that has a faulty component then that negates God's omniscience.
Brian.
------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by forgiven, posted 12-08-2002 12:14 PM forgiven has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by forgiven, posted 12-10-2002 7:23 AM Brian has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 49 (26170)
12-10-2002 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by David unfamous
12-10-2002 5:27 AM


quote:
Originally posted by David unfamous:
Your tornado and junkyard have absolutely no parallel with life and the universe.
Just as the order of life and the universe can be explained through natural processes, your car can only exist through unnatural processes.
It's a pointless and irrelevant analogy.
As for the deformed babies thing, you seem to be suggesting that deformed babies are designed by God on purpose, or badly designed at least.

you say the tornado/junkyard analogy was "pointless and irrelevant" because the car would only exist thru "unnatural processes"... accidently, in other words, or supernatural? as for life on earth, i was speaking of the first instance of such life... do you really mean to say that a tornado is an unnatural process?
btw i'd really like to hear your explanation as to the natural vs. supernatural (or accidental) nature of tornados
as for deformed babies, i can get into that if you want, but i'm certain you don't... any mention of sin seems to drive some almost rabid... not necessarily you, but some... in any case, robin said a deformed baby was proof to her that design didn't exist... i simply asked a question to clarify in my mind her thinking... i assume you agree with her in this, therefore my question is also directed toward you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by David unfamous, posted 12-10-2002 5:27 AM David unfamous has not replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 49 (26172)
12-10-2002 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Brian
12-10-2002 5:39 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Brian Johnston:
quote:
Originally posted by forgiven:
i'm not sure if you misunderstood my post or not.. i did ask whether or not you had an opinion as to the odds of a car being left, as described, if a tornado blew through a junk yard and how those odds would stack up against the odds of humans existing on earth... iow, which is more likely to occur?
There are so many factors that need to be considered here that havent been addressed, for example, you need to have the correct materials available in the junkyard to have ANY chance of your car being left in the tornado's wake. For the sake of argument we will assume that all components for your car are there. Both scenarios are likely to be in the billions to one category, there is a chance that both COULD happen, even if it is one chance in a billion billion, there is still that chance.
But regarding life on earth, the odds get reduced after each stage of evolution. So, as we know life has evolved, there is no doubt about this, and, as far as I know, no one has seen your car appear after the tornado, or the jumbo jet in the original argument, then life on earth would have the most chance of happening.
As to the question about design and disabled babies, God is meant to be perfect and his designs should also be perfect. If God creates something that has a faulty component then that negates God's omniscience.
Brian.
brian, the odds of life appearing on earth has been calculated (sorry, i don't have the sources) to be greater than the combined total of all electrons in the universe to 1... imagine what had to occur for life to first appear here... those gas clouds had to cool to just the right temperature, gravity had to be just right, energy sources, all the crashing and spinning had to be perfect, not only in this tiny solar system but in each... and this had to occur for 15 billion years (give or take).. if you feel comfortable subtracting 3 or 4 billion so evolution can account for life after the first life, go ahead... the point stands
do you think the tornado is as unlikely to produce that car as bb is to lead to life here? for the odds to hold, there would have to be cars and jumbo jets all over the place

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Brian, posted 12-10-2002 5:39 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Brian, posted 12-10-2002 10:30 AM forgiven has not replied
 Message 17 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-10-2002 11:12 AM forgiven has replied

  
Ten-sai
Guest


Message 15 of 49 (26174)
12-10-2002 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by David unfamous
12-10-2002 5:27 AM


Hello David,
You said:
Your tornado and junkyard have absolutely no parallel with life and the universe.
I say:
Wrong! The parallel was one of probabilities, which is obviously not your field.
You say:
Just as the order of life and the universe can be explained through natural processes, your car can only exist through unnatural processes.
I say:
Really? This should be good! Many, many people are waiting to hear your version of how a swirling dust ball can collapse on itself into a molten rock and very shortly thereafter produce life. But I digress; perhaps your forthcoming "explanation" will not be scientific at all.
You say:
It's a pointless and irrelevant analogy.
I say:
Again, it wasn't pointless NOR irrelevant; it was an analogy which begs you to delve into the finer points of statistical analysis, information theory, probabilities, et al. The only thing pointless and irrelevant was your bunk knee jerk reaction to the obvious. That is, unless you had some other definition of "pointless" AND "irrelevant" in mind? Love to hear your subjective definitions of the aforementioned words...
You say:
As for the deformed babies thing, you seem to be suggesting that deformed babies are designed by God on purpose, or badly designed at least.
I say:
Deformed babies are clear facts AGAINST evolution in yet another example that mutations are bad, bad, bad... as in, opposite of evolution? Kinda like the Fruit Fly experiment...Talk about arguments from utter ignorance; would you be one of those evos who "believe" in vestiges? Which vestigal organs do you "believe" you are in possession of? Inquiring minds want to know.
In closing, it is one thing to respect another man's faith, but quite another to respect his lack of faith. Therefore, if you wish to believe in abiogenesis, panspermia, or whatever's the clever "scientific" belief of the day, fine; just don't go tossing around YOUR belief as the end of God. It is quite bigoted.
Peace,
Ten-sai

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by David unfamous, posted 12-10-2002 5:27 AM David unfamous has not replied

Replies to this message:
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