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Author Topic:   After the argument from design.
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 20 (17341)
09-13-2002 6:29 AM


I've been reading R.T. Pennock's 'Tower of Babel' and I notice that the aspect of theology which evolution did most damage is the argument from design. While I have no faith problem with its demise, I fear that religious teachers may lose their only tool to explain that there is a God. I've been reading elementary school religious education textbooks (In Indonesia, religious education is a part of the national curriculum) and most of them heavily rely on the argument from design. And so I ask the theists of this forum: How do we teach about God after evolution?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Syamsu, posted 09-13-2002 8:03 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 2 of 20 (17348)
09-13-2002 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
09-13-2002 6:29 AM


Most arguments from design, including the famous argument from Paley, are moral arguments. They argue that the goodness of the design of nature demonstrates the goodness of God it's creator. Since this is a moral argument it is not contrary to evolutionary theory (at least the non-racist, non-atheistic versions of it, notably Dawkins presents the design of nature as evil more or less).
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 09-13-2002 6:29 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by nos482, posted 09-13-2002 9:36 AM Syamsu has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 20 (17353)
09-13-2002 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Syamsu
09-13-2002 8:03 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:
Most arguments from design, including the famous argument from Paley, are moral arguments. They argue that the goodness of the design of nature demonstrates the goodness of God it's creator. Since this is a moral argument it is not contrary to evolutionary theory (at least the non-racist, non-atheistic versions of it, notably Dawkins presents the design of nature as evil more or less).
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

Nature is neither good nor evil, so morality has nothing to do with it. These are human concepts only.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Syamsu, posted 09-13-2002 8:03 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Syamsu, posted 09-15-2002 11:48 PM nos482 has not replied

  
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 20 (17361)
09-13-2002 10:23 AM


Take your hand off the keyboard. Lift it close to your face until you can see each pore in your skin. Twist it around slowly. Clasp your hand. Open again.
Move each finger one at a time.
You were created by a loving Father for a purpose.

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by nos482, posted 09-13-2002 10:28 AM Tranquility Base has replied
 Message 6 by nator, posted 09-14-2002 1:10 AM Tranquility Base has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 20 (17363)
09-13-2002 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tranquility Base
09-13-2002 10:23 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Take your hand off the keyboard. Lift it close to your face until you can see each pore in your skin. Twist it around slowly. Clasp your hand. Open again.
Move each finger one at a time.
You were created by a loving Father for a purpose.

And what purpose was that?
My mother divorced my father when I was around 3.
The only purpose to my life is the one I give to it.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-13-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tranquility Base, posted 09-13-2002 10:23 AM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Tranquility Base, posted 09-15-2002 8:55 PM nos482 has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 6 of 20 (17407)
09-14-2002 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tranquility Base
09-13-2002 10:23 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Take your hand off the keyboard. Lift it close to your face until you can see each pore in your skin. Twist it around slowly. Clasp your hand. Open again.
Move each finger one at a time.
You were created by a loving Father for a purpose.

Um, what purpose is that? To see that my hand moves?
I mean, I feel as much wonder and amazement as anybody at nature, including the human hand; probably more than many, because I appreciate how many millenia it took for nature to arrive at this snapshot in time.
However, if you look at your hand and think that God made human's specially and they didn't evolve and that we aren't a very smart upright primate, then you have only a rather conceited version of the Argument from Incredulity fallacy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tranquility Base, posted 09-13-2002 10:23 AM Tranquility Base has not replied

  
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 20 (17474)
09-15-2002 8:50 PM


^ I appreciate that you guys feel that this is an illogical arguement. However, I am convinced that you are masking the tugs of your consciences to say that the dexterity (or otherwise ) of your hand isn't a compelling potential message from God.
What purpose here? To 'find ourselves' in the context of our God given identities and the commmunity of all of God's children. It is a Jedi mind trick to tell yourself you are here for no purpose IMO. I know you think the opposite.
Life feels like it is random and yet we all know, without being told by anyone, that it isn't and we are accountable for our actions.

  
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 20 (17475)
09-15-2002 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nos482
09-13-2002 10:28 AM


nos482
We all have different 'crosses to bare' in or individual situations. The question is what can we do with what we have been given. What is our attitude.
The parables of Christ come to mind here. Read them again and you will get the distinct feeling Christ is trying to bring us to a maturity that stops comparing and claiming 'it isn't fair etc'. This is something I face in my life everyday even though I have been a Christian for many years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nos482, posted 09-13-2002 10:28 AM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by nos482, posted 09-15-2002 9:22 PM Tranquility Base has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 20 (17477)
09-15-2002 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tranquility Base
09-15-2002 8:55 PM


Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
nos482
We all have different 'crosses to bare' in or individual situations. The question is what can we do with what we have been given. What is our attitude.
I'm of the attitude that if life gives you lemons you make lemonade. As I've meantioned before, I'm a victim of thalidomide, even though I have my limbs more or less intact I do have many other physical and health problems, but I don't let that stop me from making my life as comfortable as possible. I don't even see anything wrong in the continued use of thalidomide, because it is a wonder drug. You just don't give it to pregnant women.
The parables of Christ come to mind here. Read them again and you will get the distinct feeling Christ is trying to bring us to a maturity that stops comparing and claiming 'it isn't fair etc'. This is something I face in my life everyday even though I have been a Christian for many years.
Anyone who believes that life is suppose to be fair is a fool.
I don't blame anyone, or anything, for my condition in life. Life is what you make of it.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-15-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Tranquility Base, posted 09-15-2002 8:55 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Tranquility Base, posted 09-15-2002 9:39 PM nos482 has replied

  
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 20 (17481)
09-15-2002 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by nos482
09-15-2002 9:22 PM


^ Fair enough. My only point of departure is that we can find escape from the apparent futility of life by knowing our 'identity' and our 'purpose' and that this comes from God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by nos482, posted 09-15-2002 9:22 PM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by nator, posted 09-15-2002 10:26 PM Tranquility Base has replied
 Message 15 by nos482, posted 09-16-2002 9:41 AM Tranquility Base has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 12 of 20 (17489)
09-15-2002 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tranquility Base
09-15-2002 9:39 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
^ Fair enough. My only point of departure is that we can find escape from the apparent futility of life by knowing our 'identity' and our 'purpose' and that this comes from God.
I have never, ever thought that life was futile.
Life is for living now, the very best we can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tranquility Base, posted 09-15-2002 9:39 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Tranquility Base, posted 09-16-2002 1:33 AM nator has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 13 of 20 (17494)
09-15-2002 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by nos482
09-13-2002 9:36 AM


You must be mistaking the rule of science not being allowed to make valuejudgements, for some would be scientific finding that things only have value in respect to human beings. That is also a valuejudgement, so not a scientific finding.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by nos482, posted 09-13-2002 9:36 AM nos482 has not replied

  
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 20 (17502)
09-16-2002 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by nator
09-15-2002 10:26 PM


Schraf
The Bible tells us that life without God is futile. From my own experince I was having a great time pre-Christianity too but I far prefer living in his purpose for me. But that is just my testimony.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by nator, posted 09-15-2002 10:26 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by nos482, posted 09-16-2002 9:44 AM Tranquility Base has replied
 Message 17 by Mammuthus, posted 09-16-2002 9:50 AM Tranquility Base has replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 20 (17525)
09-16-2002 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tranquility Base
09-15-2002 9:39 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
^ Fair enough. My only point of departure is that we can find escape from the apparent futility of life by knowing our 'identity' and our 'purpose' and that this comes from God.
You may get your purpose of life from your belief in god, but I have more meaning to mine. Life is only as futile as you make it.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-16-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tranquility Base, posted 09-15-2002 9:39 PM Tranquility Base has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 20 (17526)
09-16-2002 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Tranquility Base
09-16-2002 1:33 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Schraf
The Bible tells us that life without God is futile. From my own experince I was having a great time pre-Christianity too but I far prefer living in his purpose for me. But that is just my testimony.

And what purpose was that? From what I have seen, and heard, from many believers is that the purpose to life is to give praise to god and nothing else. If anything stands in the way of this it most be eliminated. All else is irrelevant. That is not a real life to me. It is slavery of the worse sort because it robs one of any true individuality.
[This message has been edited by nos482, 09-16-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Tranquility Base, posted 09-16-2002 1:33 AM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Tranquility Base, posted 09-16-2002 10:36 PM nos482 has replied

  
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