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Author
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Topic: The only difference between suicide and martyrdom is press coverage.
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is this thing loaded
Inactive Member
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Message 1 of 37 (43539)
06-21-2003 1:31 PM
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I just read a book called Survivor by Chuck Palahniuk. He said something to the effect of: if Jesus had died in prison would we be saved? This makes a lot of sense to me. I mean would Christianity be the largest religion on the planet if Jesus wasn't crucified? Where would Jesus be without the disciples? ------------------ it would come out insightful or brave or smooth or charming.
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Brian
Member (Idle past 5208 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: 10-22-2002
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Message 2 of 37 (43542)
06-21-2003 2:12 PM
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hi Loaded, I'll answer your questions from what I imagine a Bible beleiver's viewpoint to be.
if Jesus had died in prison would we be saved? Yes, because the crucifixion event itself doesnt really mean anything, it was the sacrifice that mattered, he could have died in any fashion, as long as he died for our wicked evil disgusting sins that we commit freely every minute of the day!
This makes a lot of sense to me. I mean would Christianity be the largest religion on the planet if Jesus wasn't crucified? Yes it would be, thanks to Constantine, who couldnt really care less how Jesus died, it would still be the largest faith. But only for the next few years, Islam will rapidly pass it by in terms of number of followers quite soon.
Where would Jesus be without the disciples? Well still festering in his grave of course lol. Oh this isnt a xian answer. Well since Jesus is God then the disciples have no bearing on where he is today, he is still seated at the right hand of the gracious loving father. A father who demanded that we murder his son, how loving can you get ? Actually the disciples are an interesting lot, they witnessed numerous miracles and were still stupid enough not to believe. Which sort of undermines the authorship of the books/letter associated with them. The new testament is a complex collection of books, how could people who were portrayed as relatively dense have composed such a thing? Brian.
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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member
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I don't know if it would have mattered or not. The crucifiction wasn't what saves us anyway it's the resurection. The fact that sin and death had no hold on him, that sin and death were defeated by his life and resurection. ------------------ Saved by an incredible Grace.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 6 by Rrhain, posted 06-22-2003 5:01 AM | | funkmasterfreaky has replied |
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is this thing loaded
Inactive Member
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Message 4 of 37 (43546)
06-21-2003 5:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 2 by Brian
06-21-2003 2:12 PM
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The point I'm trying to make is that if Jesus did die in prison, you wouldn't know about him or be a 'christian.'
quote:
Yes it would be, thanks to Constantine, who couldnt really care less how Jesus died, it would still be the largest faith. But only for the next few years, Islam will rapidly pass it by in terms of number of followers quite soon.
not quite buddy... I think the christian faith would have to have quite a following before the emperor of the Roman Empire considered belief in it. I mean 300 years after Jesus's death, they had enough members to attract Constantine's attention. Would they have had those necessary members if Jesus had died in a prison? ------------------ it would come out insightful or brave or smooth or charming.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2 by Brian, posted 06-21-2003 2:12 PM | | Brian has not replied |
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Rrhain
Member (Idle past 256 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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Message 5 of 37 (43594)
06-22-2003 4:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 2 by Brian
06-21-2003 2:12 PM
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Brian Johnston:
quote:
Yes it would be, thanks to Constantine, who couldnt really care less how Jesus died, it would still be the largest faith. But only for the next few years, Islam will rapidly pass it by in terms of number of followers quite soon.
Are you sure about this? From what I've read, Christianity still has the lead with a little over 2 billion followers while Islam only has about 1.2-1.4 billion (depending upon which study I've read). Now, Catholicism is about to become the #2 religion as it is losing numbers while Islam is gaining, but I then say that if we're going to divide Christianity into subgroups like Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox, then we should also divide Islam into its subgroups, too, when making comparisons. ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2 by Brian, posted 06-21-2003 2:12 PM | | Brian has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 8 by Brian, posted 06-22-2003 3:17 PM | | Rrhain has not replied |
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Rrhain
Member (Idle past 256 days) Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: 05-03-2003
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While I agree with the idea that the specific act of crucifixion isn't important to Christianity (though I do have some reservations about that given some of the ways some Christians seem to fetishize it...the giving of his blood, the supposed spear that pierced Jesus while on the cross and the various myths surrounding its passage through time, etc.) However, I have to wonder if the populace would have really rallied around someone who died in jail. After all, it was said that Jesus was going to be killed, not rot in jail and die of old age. Would he really have been considered to have fulfilled a prophecy by dying such an ignominious death? ------------------ Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member
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Message 7 of 37 (43628)
06-22-2003 12:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 6 by Rrhain
06-22-2003 5:01 AM
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After all, it was said that Jesus was going to be killed, not rot in jail and die of old age. Would he really have been considered to have fulfilled a prophecy by dying such an ignominious death? Yeah I was looking at a bunch of prophesies before I posted on this thread but decided I didn't know what I was talking about and should probably keep my mouth closed. I mostly wanted to say something about the fact that it was the resurection that was important, not so much the crucifiction itself. It's a common thing among non-christians to think us morbid because the cross is such a prominent symbol in christianity. I had a friend once ask me why people would wear a crucifix, as it seemed morbid to him. I told him I didn't know why they would do that either, lol, I personaly would only wear an empty cross, as it is to me a symbol of the resurection, where as the crucifix with Jesus hanging on it seems to symbolize his death. Of course this is a minor thing of little importance as it is only a symbol. ------------------ Saved by an incredible Grace.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by Rrhain, posted 06-22-2003 5:01 AM | | Rrhain has not replied |
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Brian
Member (Idle past 5208 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: 10-22-2002
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Message 8 of 37 (43650)
06-22-2003 3:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Rrhain
06-22-2003 4:53 AM
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HI, I agree that various sources give differing figures, and then there's the added problem of is everyone who says they are Muslim or Christian really what they say they are. I have witnessed many debates on and off-line between christian who end up declaring that the other one isnt really a christian at all! Anyway, I remember discussing this when I was studying an ‘Introduction to Islam’ course at Stirling University in 1996. I don’t have the notes, or remember references off-hand, but I had a quick look around the Net. Here's some links with an abstract from each. muslim-canada.org - This website is for sale! - muslim canada Resources and Information. Christian Muslim 1900 world population 26.9% 12.4% 1980 world population 30% 16.5% 2000 world population 29.9% 19.2% 2025 world population 25% 30% (PROJECTED) http://www.emagazine.com/...december_2002/1102feat1_sb3.html
In addition, demographics show that in several years Islam will be the largest religion in the world. Already the majority of Muslims are from outside the Arab world. Likewise, the majority of Christians are located in Asia, Africa and Latin America http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/3755589.htm
Samuel Huntington, a Harvard University professor of international relations, says Islam will be the largest religion by 2025 -- 30 percent of the world's people, compared to 25 percent for Christianity. Of course, the majority does't always equal accuracy. I will not be in University until a week on Wednesday, if you would like me to look for some more credible sources then just let me know. Brian. ------------------ Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Rrhain, posted 06-22-2003 4:53 AM | | Rrhain has not replied |
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mike the wiz
Member (Idle past 243 days) Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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'I just read a book called Survivor by Chuck Palahniuk. He said something to the effect of: if Jesus had died in prison would we be saved?' Well this is just about the most lame arguement against Jesus i have ever heard,the fact is he did not die in prison,and that all these people are agreeing with you on this site has shocked me,only the other day i was saying people were intelligent(members)however i now retract this statement! have you even got a point? Lol
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 06-23-2003 12:01 AM | | mike the wiz has replied | | | Message 35 by nator, posted 07-04-2003 9:23 AM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1716 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Well this is just about the most lame arguement against Jesus i have ever heard Do you suppose it's possible that non-christians could talk about christianity with a point besides "it's not true"? Seriously, does every question about christianity have to be couched in those terms? This hasn't been an "argument against Jesus". It's simply a "what-if" designed to illuminate the phenomenon of religion, which many of us find interesting.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by mike the wiz, posted 06-22-2003 5:02 PM | | mike the wiz has replied |
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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 282 days) Posts: 4149 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Joined: 04-09-2003
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Message 11 of 37 (43727)
06-23-2003 7:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
06-23-2003 12:01 AM
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What I can't quite see is how the topic of this thread relates to the OP. Are you suggesting that Jesus was effectively comitting suicide by coming to Earth to die for our sins? I think it is definitely the case that had Jesus died as the result of falling off a donkey he'd have had to do a lot more to convince people it counted for anything. One of the more disturbing aspects of christian faith is surely the emphasis put on Christ's suffering during the crucifixion, not to mention the fact that the lack of a crucifixion could have drastically changed the relationship between Jewish and Christian faiths.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 06-23-2003 12:01 AM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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mike the wiz
Member (Idle past 243 days) Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: 05-24-2003
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Message 12 of 37 (43759)
06-23-2003 1:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
06-23-2003 12:01 AM
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'This hasn't been an "argument against Jesus' i dont know Crash ,it just seems pointless to me because he did not die in jail,he said he laid down his life at his own will,that he has power to lay it down and power to take it back. why is it Jesus is always used in these arguements anyway,can't someone attack a muslims for a change ,or the guys like the taliban, i mean did Jesus really sound like the bad guy to you?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 06-23-2003 12:01 AM | | crashfrog has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 13 by Dan Carroll, posted 06-23-2003 1:16 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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quote:
can't someone attack a muslims for a change ,or the guys like the taliban
If I'm not mistaken, we levelled a freakin' country to get at the Taliban. As far as why no other major religions get put through the same wringer Christianity does... well, it's same answer you always get, Mike. Very vocal Christians are actively trying to have their faith imposed on the law. They are the only major group doing this with any success (in America, at least.) If Christianity stops trying to push itself on our lives, we'll extend it the same courtesy. I can assure you though, if anybody ever tries to get me to pledge allegiance to one nation under Susano-O-No-Mikoto, I'll be sure to take them to task as well. ----------- Dan Carroll [This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 06-23-2003]
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by mike the wiz, posted 06-23-2003 1:12 PM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5282 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: 12-20-2001
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preventing future cell death morally
Do you hold to some of Noam Chomsky's sentiments then? as to the media- let us say...?
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
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Re: preventing future cell death morally
quote:
Do you hold to some of Noam Chomsky's sentiments then? as to the media- let us say...?
As a linguist, or his anti-war sentiments?  As it would be risking SEVERE thread drift, I'm not going to go into my opinions on Bush's wars. Suffice to say Mike asked why no one went after the Taliban. And, well... we did go after them. Rather efficiently, actually. ------------------ ----------- Dan Carroll
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