Flat Earth Theory = Creationist Theory?

I have noticed recently that ad hoc hypotheses have become very popular with young earth creationists. On top of this, they cite creationist skepticism as a reason for including creationism in high school sciene class.To show the weakness of an ad hoc hypothesis (go here for an explanation of the term), I have decided to show how the theory of a flat earth is supported by facts and by a theory, and so should be taught side by side with Round Earth Theory.sidnote: I hope everyone who reads this will understand that a lot of this is in satire, but there is a lesson to be learned.My main source of information is from http://www.flat-earth.org. This is the homepage for the Flat Earth Society. Their existance proves that not all scientists have fallen for the round earth lie. In fact, more scientists everyday are moving to the side of the flat-earthers after they find that their round earth theory does not explain what they see in nature. Science is proving day after day that we do indeed live on a flat earth.Some of you may ask, "how about the pictures from the moon that show the earth to be round." Here is what the truth seeking flat earthers have to say about that: As you can see, it is the evil round earther's who have forced their world view upon us. They have even faked pictures to make you believe their lies. The evidence is clear. Refraction is a well understood mechanism, and the thinning atmosphere is a fact. How can round earthers denie these facts and still tell us that the earth is round with a straight face. Argh, they are against everyone who seeks the truth.But wait, what about gravity you ask? Well, gravity is just a theory, and therefore it has never been proven. In fact, gravity does not exist. This is another one of the lies that the purveyors of globularism have pushed upon us. We are only held down by inertia. Inertia is a fact. From Flat-earth.com - Ready for Development : Plainly, only inertia is needed to keep people on the earth, gravity is not needed.So, as you can see, the flat earth theory has refuted many points that round earthers claim as fact. Gravity is not needed, and then there are the round earth forgeries (there is even a movie about faking the moon landings).END SARCASM:http://www.flat-earth.org is a great read. One answer on their FAQ actually says that Idaho is a delusion. Nice to know that I live in the State of Delusion. Oh well. However, the lesson to learn is this: making up hypotheses that match up to specific data sets (thinning atmosphere and refraction) that ultimately do not address other evidence are meaningless. These hypothesis are called ad hoc. Examples include Walt Brown's Hydroplate Theory and Woodmorappe's Ark Theories. These theories require the reader to first accept the conclusion of their theories before the evidence is presented. Ad hoc hypotheses do not make predictions, but instead make convuluted and sometimes contradictory statements about present data. So, after reading the above, do you believe in a round earth or a flat earth? Is this just a belief, or is it based on evidence? Could you have been corrupted by round earth education, or does evidence above and beyond your education support your assertion that the earth is round?My admonition to young earth creationists is this: ask yourself if the theory you are supporting is ad hoc in nature, in that evidences are bent in order to fit into a preconceived theory. Also, is being skeptical enough of a reason to include creationism in science classes? If so, why not include flat earth theory in Earth Science classes, after all there are groups of scientists that argue for a flat earth and it is supported by evidence.

Just checking... it was not immediately apparent in your satire that you were aware that the site you are using is also satire. You did recognize that, I hope?I could understand satirising strange beliefs, but satirising satire seems a bit redundant.Cheers -- Sylas[This message has been edited by Sylas, 02-27-2004]

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I could understand satirising strange beliefs, but satirising satire seems a bit redundant.

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It is a bit redundant, but I am hoping the point is still made. And it is still a theory. The flat-earthers have to cover up their true feelings with satire in order to get the truth out. It's those darned biased round earthers that are the true squelchers of the truth, .

Forgive for belabouring the point, but your original post, after the end sarcasm tag, concludes with this sentence: But there are no groups of scientists, or groups of anybody, that argue for a flat earth. The site you are using is deliberate humour. I don't see how you get any useful point out of this at all.[This message has been edited by Sylas, 02-27-2004]

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Forgive for belabouring the point, but your original post, after the end sarcasm tag, concludes with this sentence:

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If so, why not include flat earth theory in Earth Science classes, after all there are groups of scientists that argue for a flat earth and it is supported by evidence.

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But there are no groups of scientists, or groups of anybody, that argue for a flat earth. The site you are using is deliberate humour. I don't see how you get any useful point out of this at all.

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Very good point. I will not edit it out of the original post, but I will gladly retract that part of the argument. However, the flat earth is supported by evidence, in a pseudoscientific sort of way. Although meant as satire, the evidence still does offer support for the satirical theory. I knew this whole post was going out on a limb from the start, that is why I stuck it in the Free For All forum. Maybe I should have thought it out better and took my time. Oh well, the damage is done.

*runs outside, looks around**returns to keyboard*Whew! I was worried there, for a minute!Ok, fair enough that this particular site is satire, but I've long wondered if "The Flat Earth Society" (any Flat Earth Society) does indeed exist. I've read on talkorigins that it does. Can anybody confirm this?I seem to recall them providing a link to an interview with the founder (or "President", if I recall correctly) but I don't have it readily available, right now. I'll have to look it up.

My best friend was in it, at Hamline University in Minnesota. So it existed there, a few years ago, at least. I don't remember if they have any sort of national office or anything.He was pretty good at it. He could argue against any proof of a spherical Earth anybody could come up with, except for me.

Hey Crash! Ack! My condolences, heh heh. Is he still a member? What was his arguing style? Did he actually present any real arguments, or was he one of those "Everything is a conspiracy!" hand-wavers? Heh, don't mess with the frog! I must admit I'm intrigued. How did you stump him? Just curious.Oh in case anybody is interested, here are those links...http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flatearth.htmlandhttp://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htmEnjoy!

I don't know. Not since he graduated, I think.He wasn't serious about it, you know. I don't think anybody joins the society except as a joke. No, he actually had some good arguments. Not the least of which was "look around you. Does this look like a sphere?" It was pretty effective because around where we lived, it's pretty damn flat. Well, we had gone on a trip to Paris together the previous summer, so I more or less reminded him that when we were in the plane, we were just high enough to begin to discern a bit of curve to the Earth. (Maybe that was just an optical illusion?) That, and the fact that you can see so much father from the plane than you can on the ground (or at the top of a high building) refuted his theory that the horizon effect was due to atmospheric haze.

That's news to me. Perhaps I'm too gullible. This site discusses the arguments for a flat earth from the Bible. It is not written by a flat-earther, but he does claim that there are such people.Page not found | Department of History used to have a description of flat-earthers and hollow-earthers, but that site is down. I just looked.Also www.fixedearth.com seems to be a legitimate site (well, legitimate in the sense that it doesn't seem to be satire) that argues for a fixed earth. That's not the same as a flat earth, but it does show what people will believe on the Bible's word--if I'm not being fooled. Like I said, it seems legit.I have seen a site with an interview with the president of a flat earth society that lives out in the desert in California somewhere, like 29 Palms or somewhere near there. I can't find it now, but it had pictures and an interview, and the guy was saying he was dead serious.I wish I could find or remember that site, but I think flat earthers do indeed exist. Wait...I found it: http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm. Am I just real gullible? This guy seems to be for real.

It appears talkorigins.org is gullible enough to believe it, too. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flatearth.htmlI think there are flat earthers out there, Sylas.

Ah! *slaps forehead* I thought you meant he was serious! As a joke, my cousin once told me he was going to sign me up with them...I nearly killed him! Well that kind of brings me back to my original question, I guess. Although I don't think I was clear enough as to what I was asking. I wasn't questioning the Flat Earth Society's existence, as such. I was questioning its sincerity.I have no doubt that an "organization" (of sorts) called "The Flat Earth Society" does exist. Perhaps what I should have asked is...Do any of its members actually believe that the earth is flat? Or do they all get together afterwards and have a big laugh about all of the people they've got tearing their hair out, trying to get them to listen to reason? Sorry about my lack of clarity the first time.I must say, if you read that page linked from talkorigins, Charles K. Johnson does seem serious. But then, appearing firm in your convictions is one of the best ways to effectively take the piss out of someone (heh, hope I'm allowed to say that).Among other things on the page, it states that he has published a map showing the "true" shape of the world. Does anybody know if there is a copy of this online? I would be very interested in seeing it.There actually seems to be very little about the Flat Earth Society on the web, but I suppose I haven't looked for anything on them for quite some time. Their apparent absence from the internet is one of the reasons I originally thought they may have been a joke. Heh! And air doesn't "look like" billions of particles. How about the moon? Does it look like a sphere? It does? Do you think it would look that way from its surface? But then, I guess I am preaching to the choir. As a matter of fact, I've heard it explained as just that! I seem to recall the "apparent" curvature of the earth at great heights being described as a trick of perspective. I'm uncertain if this, combined with the shape of the earth's "perimeter", is supposed to explain why you see curvature in all directions, mind you, but there you are.How do you explain that, you brainwashed globularist? Huh? HUH? It's ok, I'm kidding (as if you couldn't tell).

100% of the people I've known with any connection to the society were all jokers about it. I don't think there's anybody that takes it seriously.I mean, you'd have to be pretty ignorant to believe in a flat earth, and that ignorance can really only come from isolation. How could such people organize into a group without hearing that the Earth was spherical?I'm certain that everybody who has ever been in the organization did so as a joke. I've never heard of anybody who was serious about it. Which I think explains the lack of web presence - nobody takes it seriously enough to make websites.

Hi TL!Heh, you repeated both of my links! No harm done. Can't hurt to have them posted twice.Just thought I'd let you know, I can't get anything on that second one...Page not found | Department of HistoryIt keeps giving me a 404 error (Not Found). Is this the same for everyone, or is it just my stupid PC again? *kicks computer*Thanks for those other links, too! I'll definitely check them out!

That's true. But then, I'm not sure ignorance is completely necessary, (although it helps). I think it's like anything else you're conditioned to believe. I've frequently been stunned by the degree to which some people can compartmentalize their minds and this doesn't seem a whole lot different. To a person who has trained their mind to reject any evidence they don't like, hearing that the earth is spherical would mean nothing.I'm not disagreeing with you, by the way. You may be right about the society's members. I for one, find it hard to believe that they are serious, but then, there are a lot of things that I find it hard to believe anyone is serious about. I wish I could discount this possibility but it seems that every time I've thought to myself, "No way! Nobody could possibly believe that!" I've always found at least one person who does! I doubt that there's a whole "society" of them, in this case, but who knows?