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Author Topic:   Paleograph, the Curve of Knowns, and the Emperor's Clothes
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6256 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 1 of 3 (47551)
07-26-2003 11:27 PM


I've unsuccessfully raised this question on other sites. One reads, for example:
For such an ancient period as that between A.D. 100 and 300 it is of course much more difficult to be confident about the date of a manuscript. There is infinitely less comparative material. Nevertheless we are now in a fairly comfortable position to date papyrus manuscripts according to their handwriting. We do not have to rely on manuscripts of the New Testament only. We have hundreds of papyrus manuscripts of Greek pagan literary texts from this period and again hundreds of carefully written papyrus documents that show the same types of handwriting. These documents are very important for paleographers because they are often exactly dated. As a rule New Testament manuscripts on papyrus are not. A careful comparison of the papyrus documents and manuscripts of the second and third centuries has established beyond doubt that about forty Greek papyrus manuscripts of the New Testament date from this very period. Unfortunately only six of them are extensively preserved.
Even within the period that runs from c. A.D. 100-300 it is possible for paleographers to be more specific on the relative date of the papyrus manuscripts of the New Testament. For about sixty years now a tiny papyrus fragment of the Gospel of John has been the oldest "manuscript" of the New Testament. This manuscript (P52) has generally been dated to ca. A.D. 125. This fact alone proved that the original Gospel of John was written earlier, viz. in the first century A.D., as had always been upheld by conservative scholars.
- see Dating the Oldest New Testament Manuscripts
With regard to C14 dating, however, we find ...
The historical perspective on the development of radiocarbon dating is well outlined in Taylor's (1987) book "Radiocarbon Dating: An archaeological perspective". Libby and his team intially tested the radiocarbon method on samples from prehistoric Egypt. They chose samples whose age could be independently determined. A sample of acacia wood from the tomb of the pharoah Zoser (or Djoser; 3rd Dynasty, ca. 2700-2600 BC) was obtained and dated. Libby reasoned that since the half-life of C14 was 5568 years, they should obtain a C14 concentration of about 50% that which was found in living wood (see Libby, 1949 for further details). The results they obtained indicated this was the case. Other analyses were conducted on samples of known age wood (dendrochronologically aged). Again, the fit was within the value predicted at 10%. The tests suggested that the half-life they had measured was accurate, and, quite reasonably, suggested further that atmospheric radiocarbon concentration had remained constant throughout the recent past. In 1949, Arnold and Libby (1949) published their paper "Age determinations by radiocarbon content: Checks with samples of known age" in the journal Science. In this paper they presented the first results of the C14 method, including the "Curve of Knowns" in which radiocarbon dates were compared with the known age historical dates (see figure 1).
- see The Curve of Knowns
Where is the paleographic/epigraphic "Curve of Knowns" that validates and calibrates the dates (and confidence) found in the first quote?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 10-26-2003 8:31 AM ConsequentAtheist has not replied
 Message 3 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-07-2004 6:20 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6256 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 2 of 3 (62885)
10-26-2003 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ConsequentAtheist
07-26-2003 11:27 PM


Nothing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 07-26-2003 11:27 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3066 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 3 of 3 (106413)
05-07-2004 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ConsequentAtheist
07-26-2003 11:27 PM


From Dr. Gene Scott/Shroud of Turin/number VF-1213/June 6, 2000
______________________________________________________________________
As reported in the Journal radio carbon in 1986 scientists used C-14 to date an Egyptian mummy linen....as well as two Peruvian linen cloths....they knew the age of these they dug them out of graves.
" It demonstrated that the method is somewhat wanting in accuracy with regard to linen. The Egyptian mummy linen the dates ranged from 3440 to 4517 spanning eleven hundred years. The known age of the cloth was 3000 BC. The closest date C-14 could produce was 2528 requiring a calibration of 472 years to correct it. "
" Potentially the most damaging single piece of evidence to controvert the 1988 test results comes from the reported disclosure that there was a secret dating of the Shroud conducted at a California nuclear accelerator facility in 1982. Separate ends of a single thread (little smaller than a postage stamp) were dated with one end dating 200 AD and the other end of the same thread dating 1000 AD....the wide divergence in dating on the same thread should be alarming to those who consider the 1988 test definitive. " END Journal QUOTE
Point:
C-14 is not an accurate method to date linen.
From the First quote:
______________________________________________________________________
We have hundreds of papyrus manuscripts of Greek pagan literary texts from this period and again hundreds of carefully written papyrus documents that show the same types of handwriting.
______________________________________________________________________
Is this not the "Curve of Knowns" you ask for ?
Are you saying the author of the First quote is making the claim up ?
Suppose the First quote claims are accurate. Whats to be afraid of ?
Does it evidence something you have argued against ? Suppose John wrote the fragment, isn't he still a liar/fraud/deceiver ? Whats the stakes/harm here ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ConsequentAtheist, posted 07-26-2003 11:27 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
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