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Author Topic:   Problems with U.S. science education regarding evolution?
vossy
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 26 (187529)
02-22-2005 2:58 PM


In Message 69 pink sasquatch brings up an idea that I’ve been wanting to discuss for a long time: America’s apparent lack of good education standards regarding evolutionary theory.
I’ve been following the evolution/creation debate for a little over a year. After interacting online with people all over the country, the thing that amazes me most is the incredible amount of misinformation out there regarding evolutionary theory. At first, it appeared limited to a handful of aggressive fundamentalists educating their fellow churchgoers through pamphlets or websites, but I have also heard it from allegedly educated/scientific people. I have been asked questions from a professional chemist like If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys? Perhaps he, too, fell prey to the propaganda, but I would assume that he took at least one biology class in high school.
The push to teach ID in schools has also exposed the lack of understanding by the general public. My mother is a 6th grade science teacher in Wisconsin. Whenever parent/teacher conferences come around, she and the other science teachers are inundated with questions from parents wondering why the school teaches evolutionat all! (There is a small fundamentalist population in the village, but I suspect that some of these parents subscribe to more mainstream denominations as well)
Given the fact that these discussions are popping up all over the country, both online and at school board meetings, I get the feeling that there is a broad lack in the quality of evolution education at least at the elementary and high school levels, perhaps in university programs as well. It’s hard for me to pinpoint a particular problem area, but I would like to discuss the following:
1. Is this problem partially the result of current science knowledge advancing far past what was known when today’s parents were in school? This seems to be true as parents and school board members continually demonstrate a lack of understanding even in the most fundamental aspects of biology and evolution.
2. For the teachers out there, what standards are you obligated to meet when teaching evolution? How many class periods/lectures will you spend covering the material?
3. Are the particulars of evolutionary theory too hard for the average person to grasp, or are they too-often glossed over in the classroom? Is this is why it is so easy for creationism and ID to capture the imagination of the public?
4. Is it more likely that students generally aren't interested enough in school to want to understand evolutionary theory?
5. Is reform needed on a national level to increase standards across the board? It seems as though the quality of education varies from school district to school district.
Admins, I feel that this is an important topic as the board was partially created out of concern for the introduction of creationism into schools. I haven’t seen a topic devoted to it, but if you feel that it has been discussed well enough in other topics, then there’s no need to promote it. I would like to see it in Education and Creation/Evolution.
This message has been edited by vossy, 02-22-2005 14:00 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Cthulhu, posted 02-23-2005 11:40 AM vossy has replied
 Message 7 by NosyNed, posted 02-23-2005 12:37 PM vossy has replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 26 (187547)
02-22-2005 4:14 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

jar
Member
Posts: 34140
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 26 (187730)
02-23-2005 9:13 AM


Bump simply because I think it's an important subject.
Bump.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Cthulhu
Member (Idle past 6101 days)
Posts: 273
From: Roe Dyelin
Joined: 09-09-2003


Message 4 of 26 (187761)
02-23-2005 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by vossy
02-22-2005 2:58 PM


There is a problem with the teaching of evolution. In AP Biology, we spent only a month or so on evolution, the cornerstone of biology. It was never even mentioned in regular biology. This, coming from Rhode Island, which is easily as liberal as Massachusetts.

Proudly attempting to Google-Bomb Kent "The Lying Dumbass" Hovind's website
Lying Dumbass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by vossy, posted 02-22-2005 2:58 PM vossy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by vossy, posted 02-23-2005 12:16 PM Cthulhu has not replied
 Message 6 by Gary, posted 02-23-2005 12:29 PM Cthulhu has not replied
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vossy
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 26 (187772)
02-23-2005 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Cthulhu
02-23-2005 11:40 AM


Cthulhu writes:
In AP Biology, we spent only a month or so on evolution, the cornerstone of biology. It was never even mentioned in regular biology.
That's a big problem right there. Evolution is one of the cornerstones of "regular" biology. Considering that the majority of students don't take AP level Biology, this is a good illustration of the problem perpetuating itself. I can see an absence of knowledge getting filled by misinformation pretty easily.
Interestingly, the Rhode Island Department of Education has set up a detailed science education framework. If you scroll down to the evolution section there are 6 benchmarks given for a proper grounding in evolutionary theory. I suppose it's up to the teacher whether or not they discuss these benchmarks, but to not even broach the subject is pretty appalling.
How long ago were you in high school, if you don't mind me asking?

This message is a reply to:
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Gary
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 26 (187775)
02-23-2005 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Cthulhu
02-23-2005 11:40 AM


Yes, I took IB Biology courses for three years (9th, 11th, and 12th grade, graduated in 2002) in Florida and left with only a partial understanding of evolution. Though that might be my own fault, I still feel that more time should be spent teaching the subject in Biology courses. Nearly every concept in Biology ties in to evolution, and it can be taught in a way that reduces religious and ignorant people complaining about it if natural selection and random mutations are emphasized.

This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9011
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 7 of 26 (187780)
02-23-2005 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by vossy
02-22-2005 2:58 PM


My guesses,
I'm not there, we have less of a problem here (but still some).
The problem is two-fold:
1) there is an aggressive anti-evolution, anti-science -- anti-reason campaign. It is not enough to just teach a smattering of evolutionary biology as if it is being imprinted on a blank slate of a mind. There needs to be a recognition of the need to start by countering the misinformation before trying to impart real information.
2) There is very little taught of a moderately complex topic.
This is partly because of the political pressure, partly due to lack of knowledge and time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by vossy, posted 02-22-2005 2:58 PM vossy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by kjsimons, posted 02-23-2005 1:48 PM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 11 by vossy, posted 02-23-2005 2:51 PM NosyNed has replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 26 (187791)
02-23-2005 1:09 PM


Unfortunately, the reason that evolution is not taught to any degree in required biology classes is due to intimidation. Biology teachers feel threatened by the student body, the parents of the students, and by the school board. Some teachers will not teach evolution even if it is required by the state guidelines for curriculum. Teachers have reported recieving anonymous copies of creationist propoganda on their desks, threatening letters in the mail, and even insults from students during class. What the creationists can't get through science they are now getting through political and social mechanisms. States, school boards, and individual teachers are sacrificing education for better treatments from the public. It is a shame, but a reality nonetheless. Many science teachers are now asking "Why doesn't someone ask the History teacher if he believes in God? Why am I being singled out?"
What I tell many creationists is that you are only required to learn what the theory of evolution says. You are not required to accept it. That, and how are you going to prove evolution wrong if you don't even know what evolution says.

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 26 (187794)
02-23-2005 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Cthulhu
02-23-2005 11:40 AM


quote:
In AP Biology, we spent only a month or so on evolution, the cornerstone of biology.
I hope that this is because you took AP biology about the same time I did -- several decades ago. The last time I read through a first year college biology text, it was dated early or mid 1990s. There, evolution was integrated throughout the entire course. A beginning section to outline the basic principles of evolution, and then throughout the rest of the course every aspect of biology was explained through evolution, and most biological phenomenon are therefore correctly seen as evidence for evolution.
This is the most sensible way to present evolution, in my opinion. Spend the initial month explaining and outlining evolutionary biology, go into the fossil record, maybe go over some of the more egregious examples of creation "science", and then present the rest of biology as a demonstration of the explanatory power of the theory of evolution.
I don't see why a high school curriculum should be any different.

This message is a reply to:
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kjsimons
Member
Posts: 829
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 10 of 26 (187799)
02-23-2005 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by NosyNed
02-23-2005 12:37 PM


Re: My guesses,
1) there is an aggressive anti-evolution, anti-science -- anti-reason campaign.
Heck you can't even teach basic anatomy in this country without getting called a heretic!
This excerpt is from an article in Time magazine, written by Nancy Gibbs. Link to the article is here:
http://www.digitaldivide.net/news/view.php?HeadlineID=220
A science teacher in Baltimore, Md., was offering lessons in anatomy when one of the boys in class declared, "There's one less rib in a man than in a woman." The teacher pulled out two skeletonsone male, the other femaleand asked the student to count the ribs in each.
"The next day," the teacher recalls, "the boy claimed he told his priest what happened and his priest said I was a heretic."

This message is a reply to:
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vossy
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 26 (187823)
02-23-2005 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by NosyNed
02-23-2005 12:37 PM


Re: My guesses,
NosyNed writes:
I'm not there, we have less of a problem here (but still some).
I'm sure you've looked into that, Ned, but I have heard otherwise, albeit on only one occasion. On Valentine's Day, Ronald Numbers gave a talk here at UW, and he suggested that Canada is worse off than we are regarding the public's perception of evolution. IIRC, he was referring to surveys that indicated an even smaller percentage of Canadians believed that evolution was fact than in the US. He didn't get into specific numbers, but he twice suggested problems in Canada were worse than our own (and sort of chuckled). Would you say this is inaccurate? (Perhaps this is off-topic, but I'm curious)
There needs to be a recognition of the need to start by countering the misinformation before trying to impart real information.
Agreed. I believe the key component to breaking the cycle of misinformation is getting some of our teachers to quit skirting the issues at hand. This is way easier said than done, of course. I can't think of a way to hold teachers accountable other than students' performances on standardized tests. Perhaps standards need to be raised in order to get teachers to shape up their lesson plans? I'd hate to put the onus on the people that are getting mounting pressure from all sides, but I think that might be the best place to start.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by NosyNed, posted 02-23-2005 12:37 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
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Vercingetorix 
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 26 (187824)
02-23-2005 2:53 PM


weird
i learned evolutionary theory in Catholic School.
public school must really be bad.
of course i didn't accept it like most of the things they taught me. they were focused on education, more about getting the ideas out there and letting YOU choose.
protestans are scary.

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 984 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 13 of 26 (187837)
02-23-2005 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Loudmouth
02-23-2005 1:09 PM


Adding to Loudmouth's opinions, I can report what my younger daughter experienced in AP biology here in Podunk: the teacher told the class, "These three chapters {in Campbell's text} are on evolution, and you may read them if you want. They won't be on the test."
The teacher is a smart, pleasant guy who goes to the Primitive Baptist church, but I don't know his personal evo/cre leanings with any certainty. But I am quite sure that a genuine shitstorm would erupt if he actually required students to regurgitate anything about ape ancestors on a test. And yes, Texas high-school biology standards do require mastery of some evolutionary concepts. I don't know if questions about evolution actually get included on the exit-level statewide tests, though.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Gary, posted 02-23-2005 5:11 PM Coragyps has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 4160 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 14 of 26 (187852)
02-23-2005 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Vercingetorix
02-23-2005 2:53 PM


Re: weird
protestans are scary.
Nice generalization. Looks like your school might be skipping the lessons on tolerance?

By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
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Gary
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 26 (187866)
02-23-2005 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Coragyps
02-23-2005 3:38 PM


I don't think it is really nescessary to teach human evolution in high school. It could be optional, but I think it is more useful to focus on the core concepts in evolution. For example, students could be taught about bacterial resistance to antibiotics as an illustration of mutation, and about the evolution of foods such as corn from teosinte as an example of artificial selection. The peppered moth is a good example too. Human evolution is pretty complex, and may be too controversial. It might be alright to let the students learn it on their own through optional projects or writing assignments where they can pick a topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Coragyps, posted 02-23-2005 3:38 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
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