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Author Topic:   An example of Science - For Quetzal
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 1 of 7 (76073)
12-31-2003 6:54 PM


Recently I was asked by Quetzal, being a Creationist myself - to try to convince other Creationists that Sciences = Science. In other words we Creo's should consider that Scientific thought throughout the recent centuries has and is based on evidence and is therefore - Science.
I understand Quetzal's frustration because what he believes in, he believes in because of evidence. Recently Buzsaw has said Evolutionists have/or are "faith" based. I agree with him partially being Creationist myself BUT I do not think the TOE itself is a lie or religious.
For example, I asked about skulls when wanting to know why Evolutionists think - transitionals. I thought I would get a poor response and would be shown no evidence. I was then shown this
KNM-WT 1500
Now, although I don't come to an evolutionary conclusion myself, I do not see how this example is not Scientific. It's there in my face and it IS evidence. I think whether we like it or not we have to agree the TOE itself is Scientific. Evolutionists beware though, if you start saying this Science has/or makes our faith wrong you will indeed step out of Science and enter the realm of the opinionated. Which is NOT Scientific like the TOE>
So, when I see Science - I think I know what it is, I think Creo's should admitt evidence when it is before our eyes. If we start denying reality it cannot be a good thing. Don't forget if it wasn't for Science and those who are Scientific we would still be in the dark ages, letting spirit's out of our heads via the knife. I am grateful for Science - it saves lives, when your next ill remember that. E.G. Forensics - do we deny their evidences when there is a crime - NO.
So, it's silly to deny evidence when it's in front of you.
KNM-WT 1500? - At this moment is there a better Science to explain why or what he is, than evolution? - No. It appears the TOE does fit the facts, better than any other Science Theory - I'm not saying I believe Evolution happened, I don't - but I am not going to deny the facts seem to fit this recent Scientific Theory better than any other Theory which >is Science.
I feel sorry for those true Science Evolutionists, who ONLY have Scientific motives - and are called liars e.t.c. I commend their efforts.
This was an example of Science for Quetzal.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Asgara, posted 12-31-2003 7:12 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 3 by Quetzal, posted 01-01-2004 7:23 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 2 of 7 (76075)
12-31-2003 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
12-31-2003 6:54 PM


Mike darlin', I applaud you.
I don't think anyone here would attempt to take your faith away. That is not what science is about. There are people here of many persuasions, stict atheists, agnostic atheists, theistic evolutionists, fundamentalist creationists.
I don't believe that even the strictist atheists would say that the TOE disproves god, just as creationism cannot prove god. Belief is a personal thing.

Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 12-31-2003 6:54 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 3 of 7 (76108)
01-01-2004 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by mike the wiz
12-31-2003 6:54 PM


Excellent OP, mike. Well done. And, you might find it interesting that a died-in-the-wool evilutionist would agree, but I fully concur with your statement:
Evolutionists beware though, if you start saying this Science has/or makes our faith wrong you will indeed step out of Science and enter the realm of the opinionated.
Absolutely correct. Whenever a scientist starts spouting off about science disproving God, faith, etc, then they have stepped waaaay beyond the bounds of science - and are giving their personal opinion, not a scientific one (yeah, I mean you, Dr. Dawkins ).
Thank you mike.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mike the wiz, posted 12-31-2003 6:54 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by sfs, posted 01-01-2004 7:45 AM Quetzal has replied

  
sfs
Member (Idle past 2533 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 4 of 7 (76110)
01-01-2004 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Quetzal
01-01-2004 7:23 AM


quote:
Absolutely correct. Whenever a scientist starts spouting off about science disproving God, faith, etc, then they have stepped waaaay beyond the bounds of science - and are giving their personal opinion, not a scientific one (yeah, I mean you, Dr. Dawkins ).
Does Dawkins actually do this? I don't like Dawkins and don't read him, so I have no interest in defending him, but whenever this subject comes up I haven't seen anyone present a quotation where he has claimed that atheism is a scientific conclusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Quetzal, posted 01-01-2004 7:23 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Quetzal, posted 01-01-2004 8:48 AM sfs has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 5 of 7 (76114)
01-01-2004 8:42 AM


Asgara and Quetzal - I think you're hitting the bingo, ofcourse hardly anyone here attacks my faith, I've realised from personal experience though that it's the "uninformed" Atheist or "layman" who seems to attack me with Science.
I thought this might go well with this thread;
http://www.surg.med.utoronto.ca/...ch/source/neanderthal.htm
Only just found the bugger!
I hope the cast is an accurate one. It is NOT KNM-WT 1500, it is ofcourse Neanderthal man. Ain't it cute?

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 6 of 7 (76115)
01-01-2004 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by sfs
01-01-2004 7:45 AM


I like Dawkins quite a bit. I have most of his popular books sitting on my shelves, in fact. He may not have ever said the words, "Science disproves God", however his stance on the issue is pretty unequivocal. You might find the list of Dawkin's quotes on Positiveatheism.org illuminating. My only real problem with Dr. Dawkins is the way his quite vocal atheism is undifferentiated in the popular mind from his science - which he is at great pains to keep separate. Unfortunately, he has become the bete-noire of the fundamentalists, who use his atheism as a way of condemning ALL of evolutionary science - not realizing or being willing to understand the difference between Dawkins' science and his philosophical position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by sfs, posted 01-01-2004 7:45 AM sfs has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 7 of 7 (76116)
01-01-2004 9:24 AM


Topic additions>
Neanderthal's skull for comparison with his cast.

  
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