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Author Topic:   The Materialistic God: Could a Multiverse Have Evolved God?
JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 28 (148278)
10-08-2004 9:00 AM


Here's an idea I had which makes sense to me but I'm no scientist sooooooo I was wondering if anyone more knowledgeable than myself could poke holes in it and tell me why it wouldn't be possible. So, here goes:
As I understand it, there are two possible causes for why at least one life-supporting universe exist........the first possibility being the only one considered and accepted throughout most of human history ("God did it"), or there are an infinity of universes and, therefore, every type of universe that CAN exist, DOES (or has) exist/existed. But if this is so, if it were even possible for a God or a God-like entity to have evolved naturalistically, then that means that there exists a God or gods.
So, is it possible for God to have evolved?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 10-08-2004 11:38 AM JasonChin has replied
 Message 8 by arachnophilia, posted 10-08-2004 3:43 PM JasonChin has not replied
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 8:07 PM JasonChin has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 28 (148336)
10-08-2004 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by JasonChin
10-08-2004 9:00 AM


Forum?
I went to promote this and then realized I don't know which forum it should go in.
Perhaps you can clarify whether this is more cosmological or faith and belief. Edit the opening post (OP) so the emphasis is clearer. For one thing you haven't tied the one universe to God did it at all. Down that path might lay more cosmology.
The other path is more about the nature of God. Which way do you want this to go?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by JasonChin, posted 10-08-2004 9:00 AM JasonChin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by JasonChin, posted 10-08-2004 11:53 AM AdminNosy has replied

  
JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 28 (148344)
10-08-2004 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNosy
10-08-2004 11:38 AM


Re: Forum?
Definitely Cosmological. Thanks.

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 4 of 28 (148345)
10-08-2004 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by JasonChin
10-08-2004 11:53 AM


Re: Forum?
So, is it possible for God to have evolved?
And how is this going to stay on cosmology?
I'm going to promote this anyway but it is not very well formed.

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 5 of 28 (148346)
10-08-2004 11:55 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Beercules
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 28 (148417)
10-08-2004 3:03 PM


In terms of Frank Tiplers God? Doubtful, at least when one consider the laws of physics as a boundary. The question is, how advantaged does a civilization have to be before you will call it's citizens gods?

Replies to this message:
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MrPhy42
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 28 (148422)
10-08-2004 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Beercules
10-08-2004 3:03 PM


I also think the question being addressed would require to know if the laws of physics throughout a multi verse would be constant. If all possible universes exist, do they all retain the same laws of physics. My answer would be yes, they would all have to be governed by the same basic laws. This would mean that the existence of a God (depending on how you define a being) would be no more likely in any other context than it would in our own. As Beercules showed, we must first define what a God is before we can determine the likelihood or possibility of it's existence.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 8 of 28 (148429)
10-08-2004 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by JasonChin
10-08-2004 9:00 AM


i'm going to address this question two entirely different ways, so bear with me.
speaking in terms of quantum multiverses, anything that can happen probably does. i think it's safe to say with certainty that if a god could evolve, and this whole multiverse thing has any merit, that it has probably happened on at least one occasion.
also, in terms of the bible, the grammar of the sentance "god created man in his own image" supports this claim. one of the phrases in that verse suggests a continuing process, that we are evolving into god(s). jesus also spoke of the church as a bride for god. it's quite possible that the god of the bible is an evolved deity only responsible for creation is this specific universe, and that we are to be a companion for it.
of course, this is all crack-pot.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 9 of 28 (148539)
10-08-2004 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by JasonChin
10-08-2004 9:00 AM


So, is it possible for God to have evolved?
Can a god die? That's a requisite for evolution. Does it make sense to have a population of gods? Individuals don't evolve, populations evolve.
As I understand it, there are two possible causes for why at least one life-supporting universe exist........the first possibility being the only one considered and accepted throughout most of human history ("God did it"),
I don't understand why god has to exist for there to be only one life-supporting universe. You presume too much when you suggest that the existence of the universe is contingent on something, or that it's possible for the universe to not exist. We simply don't know, we don't even know if it's possible to know, and that's a pretty flimsly basis for argumentation.
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 10-08-2004 07:08 PM

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 10 of 28 (148546)
10-08-2004 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
10-08-2004 8:07 PM


Can a god die? That's a requisite for evolution
up until they achieve immortality, sure. the question is "what defines a god?"

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JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 28 (148586)
10-09-2004 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Beercules
10-08-2004 3:03 PM


In terms of Frank Tiplers God?>>
I don't know who this is. Please elaborate.

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JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 28 (148587)
10-09-2004 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by MrPhy42
10-08-2004 3:21 PM


we must first define what a God is before we can determine the likelihood or possibility of it's existence.>>
Ok, fair enough. How about a disembodied conciousness that has far-reaching (but not necessarily infinite) powers which can extend to other universes (a necessary pre-requisite for this materialistic God to be able to create new universes).
Basically, a God which, in terms of power, could match the theistic concept. For all intents and purposes (though not necessarily literally) omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.
This message has been edited by JasonChin, 10-09-2004 01:58 AM

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 Message 13 by arachnophilia, posted 10-09-2004 3:51 AM JasonChin has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 13 of 28 (148598)
10-09-2004 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by JasonChin
10-09-2004 2:51 AM


if we're using the bible's definition of god, that's wrong.
How about a disembodied conciousness
god has or had a physical body, while still being called god. see the part where he wrestles with jacob, or when moses asks to see him.
omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.
genesis 3 list two requirements for diety:
1. knowledge of good and evil (free will)
2. eternal life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by JasonChin, posted 10-09-2004 2:51 AM JasonChin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by JasonChin, posted 10-09-2004 4:03 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
JasonChin 
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 28 (148601)
10-09-2004 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by arachnophilia
10-09-2004 3:51 AM


This is an ID argument, not a creationist argument. Therefore, I'm not making the assertion that this idea accounts for the existance of the Biblical God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by arachnophilia, posted 10-09-2004 3:51 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by arachnophilia, posted 10-09-2004 7:53 PM JasonChin has replied

  
Beercules
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 28 (148675)
10-09-2004 2:06 PM


I don't think the laws of physics would allow this sort of thing.
BTW, Tipler is the author of The Physics of Immortality. This fantasy deals with superhumans that would have the ability to bring the dead back to life.

Replies to this message:
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