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Author Topic:   God created the universe at some time before the Big Bang
john hunter
Inactive Junior Member


Message 1 of 15 (148018)
10-07-2004 6:40 AM


I would like to propose that God created the universe at some time before the Big Bang. This universe then collapsed under its own gravity.
According to website IIS Windows Server the strength of gravity reduces when matter is densely packed. This may provide a mechansism for the universe to 'bounce' and give a Big Bang, which, at first sight, was a moment of creation, although the real creation would have been by God at some unknown earlier time.
{Previous to release, the topic title was changed from "big bang and cosmology" to "God created the universe at some time before the Big Bang". - Adminnemooseus}
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 10-07-2004 02:05 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by coffee_addict, posted 10-07-2004 3:38 PM john hunter has replied
 Message 4 by sidelined, posted 10-07-2004 9:05 PM john hunter has replied
 Message 5 by arachnophilia, posted 10-08-2004 3:10 AM john hunter has replied
 Message 11 by 1.61803, posted 10-11-2004 12:13 PM john hunter has replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 15 (148140)
10-07-2004 3:06 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 3 of 15 (148150)
10-07-2004 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by john hunter
10-07-2004 6:40 AM


john hunter writes:
I would like to propose that God created the universe at some time before the Big Bang. This universe then collapsed under its own gravity.
I checked your link and thought it was creative enough. There are several things I want to point out. First, could you give a better account for this hypothesis not everybody would have to go to that site and fish around for info?
Second, I noticed that there is almost a total lack of evidence for someone to even propose such a hypothesis. At its current form, it won't stand a chance against the big bang model because there have been discoveries made that completely agreed with the predictions made by the big bang theory. Going back further, astronomers observed that the universe was expanding (inflating) and when they tried to work the math backward everything seemed to have come from a single point. This was partly why BB was even proposed in the first place.
Third, could you give us your reason(s) to why we need to modify our current model to fit this very creative but evidence-lacking model?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by john hunter, posted 10-07-2004 6:40 AM john hunter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by john hunter, posted 10-11-2004 6:32 AM coffee_addict has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 4 of 15 (148226)
10-07-2004 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by john hunter
10-07-2004 6:40 AM


john hunter
I would like to propose that God created the universe at some time before the Big Bang. This universe then collapsed under its own gravity.
Since the Big bang is initiated at T >0 what is do you mean by time before the big bang? What is the physical condition of a universe at at T< 0 or negative time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by john hunter, posted 10-07-2004 6:40 AM john hunter has replied

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 5 of 15 (148252)
10-08-2004 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by john hunter
10-07-2004 6:40 AM


what he said about the time problem.
also, i believe astrophysicists have calculated that there is not currently enough matter in the universe to cause a bounce.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by john hunter, posted 10-07-2004 6:40 AM john hunter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by john hunter, posted 10-11-2004 6:48 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
Beercules
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 15 (148416)
10-08-2004 3:01 PM


I would like to propose that God created the laws of physics at some point in the past. However, this was probably a mistake. God, having infinite power and thus infinite mass, began to collapse into a black hole. Now he's gone. This theory could explain why deities from the past ages have been known to disappear. Once a deity becomes all powerful, he/she collpases into a BH.
This is still a science forum, right?

  
john hunter
Inactive Junior Member


Message 7 of 15 (149066)
10-11-2004 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by coffee_addict
10-07-2004 3:38 PM


Dear Lam,
Thanks for your e-mail,
I think there are reasons why the Big Bang model should be ammended.
First the prediction of a singularity is a problem for physics, secondly the flatness problem of cosmology can be solved by the approach of a variable strength of gravity.
Also there are problems about the shape of rotation curves for galaxies, and unanswered questions about why the universe appears to be accelerating.
As you can see on the section IIS Windows Server (galactic rotation curves) the shape of the curves is predicted by the new model.
However, I don't want you to think that I'm entirely against the Big Bang model, I agree that it has had successes. The Big Bang could have occured from a very dense region of spaced with a reduced strength of gravity, but not as a moment of creation from a singularity. Thats my opinion - what do you think.
All the best,
J. Hunter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by coffee_addict, posted 10-07-2004 3:38 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by coffee_addict, posted 10-11-2004 8:05 PM john hunter has replied

  
john hunter
Inactive Junior Member


Message 8 of 15 (149069)
10-11-2004 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by sidelined
10-07-2004 9:05 PM


Dear Member,
The answer to your question is as follows:
The Universe was not created in the 'Big Bang' and there was a time before the 'Big Bang'.
According to the new model the universe did exist before, its physical state was tremendously high density and pressure, at the moment of the 'Big Bang' - (but not a singularity), and a reduced strength of gravity, which allowed the bang to occur.
At a time before that, the universe might be similar to what it is today, it would then have undergone a collapse under its own gravity to the state mentioned above.
Thanks for your e-mail,
All the best,
J. Hunter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by sidelined, posted 10-07-2004 9:05 PM sidelined has not replied

  
john hunter
Inactive Junior Member


Message 9 of 15 (149073)
10-11-2004 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by arachnophilia
10-08-2004 3:10 AM


Dear Arachnophilia,
Only some of your message showed up on the EVC site, however on the point that there may not be enough mass in the universe to cause a collapse.
For the universe to collapse the mass would have to exceed what astronomers and cosmologists call the critical density.
Most cosmologists believe the universe is precisely at critical density, and this is one reason they believe in dark matter. So its not clear whether the universe is just at, or above , or below critical density. (Inflation was developed to try and explain why the universe should be so close to critical density).
However besides the above argument, the universe has been observed to be accelerating in its expansion, and this fact cannot be explained by conventional physics. Things are far from straight-forward, and I believe that the possibility that the universe can be in a cycle of expansions, collapses and bounces cannot be ruled out.
Yours sincerely,
J. Hunter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by arachnophilia, posted 10-08-2004 3:10 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by arachnophilia, posted 10-11-2004 7:09 AM john hunter has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 10 of 15 (149075)
10-11-2004 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by john hunter
10-11-2004 6:48 AM


well, yes. i posted so little on the subject because i'm not sure. and neither is anyone else, to my knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by john hunter, posted 10-11-2004 6:48 AM john hunter has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 11 of 15 (149127)
10-11-2004 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by john hunter
10-07-2004 6:40 AM


John hunter writes:
I would like to propose that God created the universe at some time before the Big Bang.
One problem with this proposal is it assumes such a entity exist. Some contend that there is no need to assume that the universe was ever created at all, it simply transforms from one type of existance to another. Also, as Sideline has elluded, Time is a construct of Space. It is moot to discuss time pre BB. The universe does indeed exist, but how and why are questions humans as of yet have no answers to. Claiming that "God did it"
Pre Big Bang and claiming God did it in 6 days still assumes a supernatural cause. JMHO.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by john hunter, posted 10-07-2004 6:40 AM john hunter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by john hunter, posted 10-14-2004 7:52 AM 1.61803 has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 12 of 15 (149193)
10-11-2004 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by john hunter
10-11-2004 6:32 AM


jh writes:
First the prediction of a singularity is a problem for physics, secondly the flatness problem of cosmology can be solved by the approach of a variable strength of gravity.
What singularity problem? Please clarify.
Also there are problems about the shape of rotation curves for galaxies, and unanswered questions about why the universe appears to be accelerating.
Dark matter and dark energy.
As you can see on the section IIS Windows Server (galactic rotation curves) the shape of the curves is predicted by the new model.
Well, for one thing the new model doesn't have any real tangible evidence to back it up.
Thats my opinion - what do you think.
Tell you the truth, I don't have an opinion on the matter. I only know certain facts about the debate. If I do have an opinion on the matter, it's like me having an opinion on the female orgasm. Since I'm a guy, I wouldn't know where to begin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by john hunter, posted 10-11-2004 6:32 AM john hunter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by 1.61803, posted 10-12-2004 5:19 PM coffee_addict has not replied
 Message 15 by john hunter, posted 10-14-2004 8:17 AM coffee_addict has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 13 of 15 (149483)
10-12-2004 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by coffee_addict
10-11-2004 8:05 PM


Lam writes:
what singularity problem?
dsolve({diff(x(t),t)=x(t)*(1+log(x(t)))*(1+log(x(t))),x(0)=1,x(t));
gets x(t)=exp(exp(exp(t)-1)-1)
raising the log log term to (n+1)/n power brings in a singularity at t=n as before.
*above taken from Page not found « Kurzweil
This message has been edited by 1.61803, 10-12-2004 04:24 PM

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john hunter
Inactive Junior Member


Message 14 of 15 (149839)
10-14-2004 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by 1.61803
10-11-2004 12:13 PM


Dear 1.61803,
(which is the golden ratio, (1+square root of 5)/2, ?)
I agree with you that saying that God created the universe can be used to avoid questions which humans have no answer to as yet. I proposed that God created the universe at a time before the Big Bang - but I didn't mean God as an actual being, rather that the laws of nature are eternal and existed unchanged before the Big Bang.
As humans have discovered more over the years, these laws always seem to show a compelling simplicity and beauty, thus it is tempting to use a 'shorthand' 'God' to acccount for the otherwise unexplained order in natures laws.
All the best,
J. Hunter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by 1.61803, posted 10-11-2004 12:13 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
john hunter
Inactive Junior Member


Message 15 of 15 (149841)
10-14-2004 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by coffee_addict
10-11-2004 8:05 PM


Dear Lam,
You proposed dark matter to explain the shape of galactic rotation curves.
There are a couple of problems.
i) To have almost a perfectly flat rotation curve, it probably isn't enough for astrophysicists to say that the galaxy is surrounded by a halo of dark matter, the distribution of the dark matter must also be explained (i.e. why does its density vary with radius, in such a way, as to make the rotation curve so flat?
ii) There have been extensive searches for the dark matter for many years now, and no group has found out what it could be.
So the proposal that the strength of gravity depends on the proximity of the surrounding matter can help with the above two problems.
i) The required distribution of the dark matter can be explained, details in IIS Windows Server (galactic rotation curves).
ii) Because the strength of gravity may periodically reduce at the centres of galaxies (due to the enormous density) - jets can periodically emerge, showering normal matter out from the centre, which then spreads out as the halo of dark matter. Later this matter would be attracted back to the galaxy.
The dark matter halo would, according to these proposals, be normal matter (initially in plasma form) which has been ejected from the galaxy when the gravity briefly reduced.
To find hard evidence for these proposals I've been in contact with Lunar Laser Ranging groups who measure the distance to the moon.
Because the earth-sun distance varies over the year, it would be expected from the theory that the strength of the earths gravity also varies over a year, and this should show up as a change in the moon - earth distance. The predicted change is tiny (about 6cm), it has been observed, however there is an ongoing debate as to whether it is due to the theory in the website, or due to changes in time measurements in different co-ordinate frames.
J. Hunter.
J. Hunter.

This message is a reply to:
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