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Author Topic:   Before Big Bang God or Singularity
ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 1 of 405 (451845)
01-28-2008 9:30 PM


Rahvin and I were discussing God the singularity and the Big Bang in another thread, He thought we were getting too far off topic and suggested I start a thread where we could discuss it.
In http://EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang -->EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang to randman Rahvin said:
Rahvin writes:
Again, this is special pleading. The Universe could not possibly have always existed, but your god can? Even the Big Bang does not suggest that there was a point "before" the Universe existed - only that it existed as the Singularity at the beginning of the expansion we now see.
In http://EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang -->EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang I comented on Rahvin's statement:
ICANT writes:
You are saying I must believe the singularity came from an absence of anything and you don't call that special pleading?
In http://EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang -->EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang Rahvin responded:
Rahvin writes:
I'm not saying that the Singularity came from anything at all. In fact, Im saying quite the opposite. We know that the Singularity existed, and that asking about "before" the Singularity is a nonsense question. We also know that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed - there is no special pleading, because we know that the Universe exists. There is no evidence of god, and thus he is an extraneous entity.
In http://EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang -->EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang I responded:
Rahvin writes:
We know that the Singularity existed,
ICANT writes:
Could you site your references for this statement.
In http://EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang -->EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang I was told:
Rahvin writes:
Try every paper ever written concerning the Big Bang. The Singularity is simply the single point from which the Universe expanded at the Big Bang. We know it existed by extrapolating the expansion of the Universe backwards.
The Singularity does not, however, imply that the Universe did not exist at some point, as you seem to believe. Matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed - the Singularity is simply the state of the Universe as it began expanding. Creationists are the ones who claim the Universe did not exist at some point.
I have read quite a few but I was wanting one that said "We know that the Singularity existed," as I had never seen one.
In http://EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang -->EvC Forum: Creator of God, Big Bang to Rahvin :
qs=RahvinThe Singularity does not, however, imply that the Universe did not exist at some point,
ICANT writes:
Make up your mind.
The big bang theory supposedly proved the universe had a beginning.
Now you are saying it never had a beginning.
Rahvin writes:
the Singularity is simply the state of the Universe as it began expanding.
ICANT writes:
If there was no space.
If there was no time.
If there was no energy.
If there was no matter.
That sounds like an absence of anything to me.
Therefore there was no singularity.
At the instant of the Big Bang, the universe was infinitely dense and unimaginably hot. Cosmologists believe that all forms of matter and energy, as well as space and time itself, were formed at this instant. Since "before" is a temporal concept, one cannot ask what came before the Big Bang and therefore "caused" it, at least not within the context of any known physics.
In this topic I would like to discuss which is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. God or the Singularity including the Big Bang.
I will reference the Bible.
I will reference scientific papers.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by tesla, posted 01-28-2008 10:31 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 10 by Hill Billy, posted 01-29-2008 1:42 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 13 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 7:58 AM ICANT has replied

AdminNosy
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Message 2 of 405 (451849)
01-28-2008 9:53 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

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GDR
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Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 3 of 405 (451852)
01-28-2008 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNosy
01-28-2008 9:53 PM


Just a query. He mentioned referencing the Bible. It seems to me that this shouldn't be in a science thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 01-28-2008 9:53 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Replies to this message:
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tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 4 of 405 (451858)
01-28-2008 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
01-28-2008 9:30 PM


logic
In this topic I would like to discuss which is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. God or the Singularity including the Big Bang.
so in essence, you want to know...before that?
ok. there was the big bang.
before that?
something. before that? before that? before that?
the before that never ends until you get to one thing.
since nothing outside of energy is real, the one thing is energy.
you calling that the singularity? and wanna know before that? another singularity? once its singular, there's nothing to be before. if nothing, the singularity wouldn't be, so only the singular energy could be, and had to be, because we are.
why? i dunno. it was. or i wouldn't be.
so if anyone truly asks "before that" your going to eventually stop at one. because as long as two things are, before that is relevant.
so , the "one" energy. what are we looking for to be able to observe it. what did it look like.
question that has to be answered: intelligent, yes or no?
the observation that cannot be ignored: singular and evolved or created. sign of intelligence. if intelligent, the action is an act of faith.
so what now? ignore the before that's? go back to the big bang? say God was created by a greater energy? wouldn't the greater energy be God?
if you follow this thread by what your asking, your going to follow my path of logic.
if you don't, what are you asking?

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 9:30 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 10:52 PM tesla has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 5 of 405 (451862)
01-28-2008 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by tesla
01-28-2008 10:31 PM


Re: tesla
Hi tesla,
testa writes:
so in essence, you want to know...before that?
I thought the OP was pretty specific as to what I wanted.
Did God create the Universe as stated in Genesis 1:1.
Did the universe come into existence at the Big Bang from singularity.
Now I have no need of you coming into my thread and repeating the same thing I have read in several different threads.
If you would like to contribute to the discussion as it unfolds I will be glad to respond to your posts but if you spam my thread I will protest.
Do you think God is the best explanation or the singularity?
Personally I think God is as I believe in divine creation.
Have fun and stay on topic.
Edited by ICANT, : correct spelling

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by tesla, posted 01-28-2008 10:31 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by tesla, posted 01-28-2008 11:06 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 6 of 405 (451863)
01-28-2008 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by GDR
01-28-2008 10:05 PM


Re-Bible
Hi GDR
Just a query. He mentioned referencing the Bible. It seems to me that this shouldn't be in a science thread.
GDR I have no intention of making this a Bible class my basic approach will be to see if the singularity is possible. Then I will compare events as I see them concerning God to the singularity.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by GDR, posted 01-28-2008 10:05 PM GDR has not replied

tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 7 of 405 (451867)
01-28-2008 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
01-28-2008 10:52 PM


Re: testa
Do you think God is the best explanation or the singularity?
oooh i see sorry for misinterpreting.
i believe they are both one and the same. God is the singularity.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 10:52 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 11:18 PM tesla has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 8 of 405 (451871)
01-28-2008 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by tesla
01-28-2008 11:06 PM


Re: testa
Hi tesla,
Sorry for coming down so hard it is late for me and I am tired.
I believe God is everywhere and everything. I don't think we need the singularity.
And that is what I would like to explore using scientific information.
Have fun,
Edited by ICANT, : correct spellling

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by tesla, posted 01-28-2008 11:06 PM tesla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by tesla, posted 01-28-2008 11:28 PM ICANT has not replied

tesla
Member (Idle past 1593 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 9 of 405 (451873)
01-28-2008 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ICANT
01-28-2008 11:18 PM


Re: testa
oh no need, your fine.
i also believe God is everywhere and everything, but it was and is also the singularity, but from the singularity came all things and the singularity did not cut off what it made from itself. but all that is that came from it is sustained by it, hence why we need it. that is my belief.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 11:18 PM ICANT has not replied

Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 5354 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 10 of 405 (451892)
01-29-2008 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
01-28-2008 9:30 PM


Apparently Rahvin wrote
Even the Big Bang does not suggest that there was a point "before" the Universe existed -
Ok, I wanna try and see if I get this into my tiny little mind. Does that mean the universe always was?
only that it existed as the Singularity at the beginning of the expansion we now see.
The universe always was but it used to be smaller?
We know that the Singularity existed,
Thats the little tiny(like my mind) universe, right? We know that?
and that asking about "before" the Singularity is a nonsense question.
Ya, I guess if the universe always was that would be kinda silly.
So we know this, that the universe has always been here but it used to be smaller?
I wonder how small.
Man, I don't know if I can wrap my head around this.

"Some people spout bullshit just to hear their own heads rattle" Grampa Frame.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 9:30 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Taz, posted 01-29-2008 1:47 AM Hill Billy has replied
 Message 17 by ICANT, posted 01-29-2008 10:37 AM Hill Billy has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 405 (451894)
01-29-2008 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Hill Billy
01-29-2008 1:42 AM


What's there to wrap your head around?
Consider the following. Suppose you are standing directly on the north pole. You ask, "what's north of here?" Is there an answer to this question? I'd say this question is nonsensical and doesn't deserve an answer. Apply this to time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Hill Billy, posted 01-29-2008 1:42 AM Hill Billy has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 15 by ICANT, posted 01-29-2008 10:22 AM Taz has replied

Hill Billy
Member (Idle past 5354 days)
Posts: 163
From: The hills
Joined: 01-26-2008


Message 12 of 405 (451899)
01-29-2008 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
01-29-2008 1:47 AM


What's there to wrap your head around?
Well, the whole frickin universe, thats what.It seems there's quite a bit of it out there.
Consider the following. Suppose you are standing directly on the north pole. You ask, "what's north of here?" Is there an answer to this question?
Well,I'm not sure, cause if I was standing on the magnetic north pole wouldn't I be able to point north?
I'd say this question is nonsensical and doesn't deserve an answer. Apply this to time.
Are you saying that time is round?

"Some people spout bullshit just to hear their own heads rattle" Grampa Frame.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Taz, posted 01-29-2008 1:47 AM Taz has not replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 13 of 405 (451918)
01-29-2008 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
01-28-2008 9:30 PM


In this topic I would like to discuss which is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. God or the Singularity including the Big Bang.
The Big Bang/Singularity is not the origin of the Universe, it is merely one end of it. Delving into the past just tells us what conditions were like back then, it does not tell us why the Universe exists. It may be that there is only a finite distance you can go back in time, before you reach a minimum and start heading forwards again (as with travelling north to the North Pole). It maybe that there is no minimum (at least, not at the Big Bang) and we can push through into some other region of existence. But in neither case do we gain an understanding of why the Universe exists. We merely see what came before. The past no more explains the Universe's existence than the North Pole explains the Earth's existence. All it can do is help explain why the slice of the Universe at T=now looks the way it does.
This topic and its predecessor are so littered with abuses of terminology that it is extremely difficult to respond to any particulars...
There is no such thing as conservation of matter.
Conservation of mass/energy is LOCAL and is not necessarily obeyed GLOBALLY.
The Universe is not 'made of energy' in the way that oceans are not 'made of waves'.
The singularity is the breakdown in the physics of classical General Relativity at T=0 in the Big Bang cosmology.
Strictly, the singularity does not exist as it is simply the artifact of inapplicable mathematics (as quantum General Relativity is required at this point.)
Colloquially, the singularity refers to the ultra-dense, ultra-hot state around T=0 (up to say T=10^-43 secs), and all evidence points to this very much existing.
Whether or not T=0 represents the lowest bound on T is very much work in progress.
God is not a singularity, unless you want to redefine 'singularity' to mean 'that which is God', and then it no longer has any meaning in mathematics/physics.
If there was no space.
If there was no time.
If there was no energy.
If there was no matter.
That sounds like an absence of anything to me.
Therefore there was no singularity.
If there is no East
If there is no West
If there is no North
Then how can I be anywhere?
Therefore there is no North Pole...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ICANT, posted 01-28-2008 9:30 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by ICANT, posted 01-29-2008 9:45 AM cavediver has replied
 Message 101 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-31-2008 6:44 PM cavediver has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 14 of 405 (451931)
01-29-2008 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by cavediver
01-29-2008 7:58 AM


Re-How can I be anywhere
Hi cavediver,
cavediver this is just another one of my stupid questions and since you said it was only stupid if I didn't ask it I did.
cavediver writes:
Then how can I be anywhere?
Thats easy God created everything and you are here.
cavediver writes:
This topic and its predecessor are so littered with abuses of terminology that it is extremely difficult to respond to any particulars...
ICANT writes:
In this topic I would like to discuss which is the best explanation for the origin of the universe. God or the Singularity including the Big Bang.
What is abusses of terminology do you find in the above question?
You address this post to me and then start answering tesla I think.
But you did say:
cavediver writes:
Strictly, the singularity does not exist
Well if the singularity does not exist.
You mean the Creo's have been right all the time?
Are you saying God is a better answer than singularity?
Have fun.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 7:58 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by cavediver, posted 01-29-2008 10:25 AM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 15 of 405 (451945)
01-29-2008 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
01-29-2008 1:47 AM


Re-North Pole
Hi Taz,
I would like to take a crack at this question even though I know it is a trick question. But you did not qualify any particulars so here goes. Your question:
Taz writes:
Consider the following. Suppose you are standing directly on the north pole. You ask, "what's north of here?" Is there an answer to this question?
The True north pole is south of the magnetic north pole and the magnetic north pole is north of the true north pole according to a compass.
Now do you have anything to add to the topic?
Have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Taz, posted 01-29-2008 1:47 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Taz, posted 01-29-2008 11:16 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 25 by NosyNed, posted 01-29-2008 12:45 PM ICANT has replied

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