hey evos

can you please provide an example of complex, specified information that is the product of natural law or chance, or any combination of the two, including natural selection?thanks, in advance.

*snore*There are several active threads on this topic. Check out one of the various "information" threads.

Probably. You'll have to help us out here, tho'.1. Could you provide an operational definition of "complex specified information" so I know what I'm trying to provide? It's not a term used in biology (and that's the discipline from which I assume you're looking for an example - correct me if I'm wrong).2. Could you let me know in which category you're placing natural selection: chance or natural law? The problem being, you know, that ns doesn't really come under either one.Thanks.

Here is just the thread for you to define the terms you are using;
Message 1You can read up on how far the discussion got and finish it up for us. Then, when it is clear we understand the question, we can answer it for you.

Hi there, inspector.

Don't get your hopes up. I'm quite certain that lawdog's (a.k.a inspector's) definition of CSI is something akin to "that which cannot arise by evolutionary mechanisms."

If you're using Dembski's definition can you provide a proven example of CSI in biology ?

In other words, he's using Dembski's definition of CSI: a pre-defined meaningful pattern that is highly improbable under an ad hoc chance hypothesis developed after the fact. Is this going to be another circular argument using the EF - which automatically defaults to "intelligence" if the causal history of a given phenomenon is unknown - to prove design? In that case, I'm outta here. Someone pass the popcorn.

In all fairness, there is a chance that I am wrong about the identity of out newest almost-member, and therefore I could also be wrong about his definition of CSI. I recommend that particpants make their own judgements, and as an aid please feel free to peruse the following threads from CARM's EVO board and be either swayed or not by the similarities in the two posting styles of lawdog on EvC and inspector on CARM. Link 1Link 2Link 3Link 4{Shortened display forms of URL's, to restore page width to normal - Adminnemooseus}[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 03-09-2004]

I'm not too familiar with dembski's work.complex = 'composed of multiple parts'.specified = 'named or stated explicitly or in detail'.information = 'the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects'.hope this helps.

How about the famous face on mars? It's just the product of erosion and shadows, but it looks a whole bunch like a face. Would that constitute as speciffic information? How about clouds that look like stuff in general?Also, I have a question for you. What is chance? In another thread we were pointing out how it dosn't truely exist in the phisical realm. That is, if I throw a pair of dice and I get double sixes, that wasn't so much chance as all the factors that went into the throw. Say, speed, wind resistance, shape of the board, etc. If I could manage to throw the dice in precisely the same way again, I would achive the same result.Thus anything on this earth weather clouds or life, are not so much a product of chance as they are the results of a long chain of cause and effect.[This message has been edited by Yaro, 03-10-2004]

Another thing taht bothers me about the whole "information" bit that ID'ers seem to tout.What is information?It seems to me that it's basicaly stuff that makes sense to us humans. Like, my alphabet soup suddenly makes a word and it's like "Holy crap, god made information in my soup! That word is Ireducably complex!"Bascaly, information, is just a convoluted way of saying "looks like stuff".

Okay, then in the spirit in which this partial answer was given:Pancreatic trypsinogen protease co-opted to AFGP in notothenioid fish via a chimeric intermediate (ex., the hybrid gene of AFGP and trypsinogen in Dissostichus mawsoni). Ref: Cheng CH-C, Chen L, 1999 "Evolution of an antifreeze glycoprotein" Nature 401:443-444.(just changed my email addy, so I can't reply as "member Quetzal" until the *&^VS##$@# software sends me a new password. How irritating.)

I am having difficulty accessing that specific article.can you post the main theme here?or, can you briefly summarize?thanks again.

Be delighted to discuss this further. As soon as you register and open a topic. This has gone about as far as a "Welcome Visitors" topic should. You asked for an example, I gave you one, and referenced the primary research from which the example was derived. A good local library should allow you access to back issues of Nature, so if you're interested, you should probably look it up.Toodles.