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Author Topic:   Mode of the Debate: Targeting Children
Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 1 of 45 (413979)
08-02-2007 5:36 AM


Answers in Genesis is going after the young. I know that religious folk have been ”teaching’ their children for millennia, so it’s not surprising to me. I know homeschooling, for reasons beyond me, is popular in the US, so of course it’s going to happen. That doesn’t stop it scaring me just like the indoctrination in Jesus Camp did. See these examples.
This is a youtube clip of AiG’s Ken Ham and Buddy Davis, from HBO’s Documentary ”Friends of God’.
And this one of their new books, entitled “It’s Designed to Do What It Does Do”:
And another of Ken's, titled “Dinosaurs of Eden: A Biblical Journey Through Time”.
They’re not the only ones. See Duane Gish’s “Dinosaurs by Design”
There are plenty of others, and this isn’t just a list of them. Just check a typical homeschooling site for materials.
Fortunately for me, I also found some books (not on a homeschooling site - that’s like checking an Islamic seafood store for prawns) with the opposing views:
As well as this beautiful series by Jennifer Morgan:
However, there was significantly less, for children at least, on this side of the fence (about 6-10 books, compared to 50-ish on the other side). Plus I don't know if there are any songs about it, or children's lectures on it (science classes at high school don't count, as that is way above where the creationists are aiming). I want to discuss a possible reason for this.
I think it might be that proponents of evolution are so against the indoctrinate of children on the other side (creationism) that they stay away from it themselves on principle. But I don’t think there is anything wrong with giving children the knowledge of the best that science has, as long as you also teach them how to think critically about it.
Perhaps the proponents are just too busy, or perhaps the science is considered too complicated. Or maybe this is normal for science, and instead it's a deliberate manoeuvre by the creationists (to 'save children from evilution'). I’m not sure what it is, so I started this thread.
Edited by Doddy, : adding other picture
Edited by Doddy, : clarify

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Message 2 of 45 (414454)
08-04-2007 9:35 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 45 (414461)
08-04-2007 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Doddy
08-02-2007 5:36 AM


The problem is not the ages, but that they lie to kids.
The problem is that the people use the tactic of direct misrepresentation of the facts, they lie to children.
A good example is the section of the video where Ken Ham is speaking. He shows slides of ape like creatures and asks the kids if their Grandfather and Grandmother looked like that.
Of course, the TOE does not say that any of our grandfathers or grandmothers were ape like creatures (although I did have this one cousin ...) yet Ken Ham implies just that.
The folk like Ken Ham KNOW that is not what Evolution says, but they continue to misrepresent the case, they Lie For Jesus.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 4 of 45 (414465)
08-04-2007 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Doddy
08-02-2007 5:36 AM


However, there was significantly less, for children at least, on this side of the fence (about 6-10 books, compared to 50-ish on the other side). Plus I don't know if there are any songs about it, or children's lectures on it (science classes at high school don't count, as that is way above where the creationists are aiming). I want to discuss a possible reason for this.
My opinion is it has more to do with the publishers than anything else. Christian publishing companies are very specialized. These publishers know that in a Fundamentalist Christian household, the material children are exposed to is strictly controlled, and they give the parents what they want to see.
In the Secular world, children are exposed to a wide range of books and materials, and have some degree of choice as to what they can read. I do not think Publishers would find a storybook or songbook on Evolution to be popular with children. My opinion is when it comes to popularising science, most young children are more likely to be fascinated with other topics that are more tangible. Also, I don't think evolution can be properly taught to young children in this age period. They may be able to repeat lines they read in a storybook, but they probably won't have the slightest idea what the larger picture is.
Also, I do not have children yet, but in lieu of books, I would prefer to give them a tool that lets them explore; something like a telescope, microscope, or Radio Shack electricty kit. I would think this would do much more in stimulating their minds, giving them the impetus to think independantly, and allow them to come to the conclusion that Science can be fun. This may spark their interest to learn more. Children can get bored very quickly.
Edited by Grizz, : No reason given.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 5 of 45 (414466)
08-04-2007 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Doddy
08-02-2007 5:36 AM


Propoganda
I watched the video and there seems little doubt that the creationist movement is blatantly out to capture the hearts and minds of children from a very early age.
Indoctrination is the name of the game.
That is pretty terrifying.
I don't think that fighting propoganda with propoganda is the right response however.
If you simply tell young children that evolution is true because scientists say so that really is no better than the creationist tactic.
However the arguments as to why evolution is true are probably too complex for the very young.
Ideally children need to be taught that different people believe different things. That there are good reasons for believing in things and bad reasons for believing in things. That you should always question why something is true.
That any belief derived from a book/person/organisation simply telling you something is true is almost always going to be a bad reason to believe.
However, again, most of this is probably beyond the comprehension of small children.
So in summary I don't know what the answer is.
Sorry to be so long-windedly unhelpful.

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 6 of 45 (414562)
08-04-2007 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
08-04-2007 10:32 AM


Ham Fisted
Of course, the TOE does not say that any of our grandfathers or grandmothers were ape like creatures (although I did have this one cousin ...) yet Ken Ham implies just that.
When he showed those 'grandparent' slides I could not help but notice that Ken himself has a bit of the simian look about him......
My apologies for lowering the tone of the discussion.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 7 of 45 (414574)
08-04-2007 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Straggler
08-04-2007 10:46 AM


Re: Propoganda
I watched the video and there seems little doubt that the creationist movement is blatantly out to capture the hearts and minds of children from a very early age.
well, yes. because they're fighting science, which also has a tendency to capture the hearts and minds of children with dinosaurs. kids learn about those guys from an early enough age, and it becomes harder and harder to indoctrinate them with religious pseudo-science creationism crap.
just ask... me.


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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 8 of 45 (414590)
08-05-2007 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by arachnophilia
08-04-2007 9:47 PM


Re: Propoganda
arachnophilia writes:
kids learn about those guys from an early enough age, and it becomes harder and harder to indoctrinate them with religious pseudo-science creationism crap.
Wouldn't that mean that, if they are successful at getting to the children before science, then it will be even harder to convince those children that their creationists beliefs are in fact religious crap?
The same thing that happened to you could happen to the kids in that video, just the other way around.
Edited by Doddy, : clarify

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 9 of 45 (414594)
08-05-2007 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by arachnophilia
08-04-2007 9:47 PM


Re: Propoganda
just ask... me.
OK I will ask. What is your story in relation to having your heart and mind captured?
As a little kid I was absolutely fascinated with dinosaurs. Knew all the names. Had a decent grasp on which dinosaurs had lived in which period and knew the theory as to why they had gone extinct.
At the same time I was still convinced that Loch Ness contained the last living dinosaur so I was as prone to wishful thinking as any other 6 year old.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 10 of 45 (414599)
08-05-2007 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Doddy
08-05-2007 3:21 AM


Re: Propoganda
Wouldn't that mean that, if they are successful at getting to the children before science, then it will be even harder to convince those children that their creationists beliefs are in fact religious crap?
The same thing that happened to you could happen to the kids in that video, just the other way around.
i'd like to believe that knowledge trumps ignorance, but you're probably right.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 11 of 45 (414600)
08-05-2007 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Straggler
08-05-2007 4:41 AM


Re: Propoganda
OK I will ask. What is your story in relation to having your heart and mind captured?
As a little kid I was absolutely fascinated with dinosaurs. Knew all the names. Had a decent grasp on which dinosaurs had lived in which period and knew the theory as to why they had gone extinct.
yes, similar story. still fascinated by dinosaurs. my interest exposed me to a lot of paleontology... not just the tv documentary kind, the college academic kind. you grow up knowing that the earth is very old, and understanding the reasons why we know that (geochronology, stratigraphy, etc etc), and understanding evolution's role in the geologic column... and it gets incredibly hard to swallow young-earth creationism when you're exposed to it. and when they say things that are just totally untrue, you know when they're lying through their teeth.
At the same time I was still convinced that Loch Ness contained the last living dinosaur so I was as prone to wishful thinking as any other 6 year old.
ah, see, even at 6 years old i would have been a smart-ass and told you that dinosaurs are land animals, and that if nessie is a plesiosaur, she'd be a marine reptile and not a dinosaur.
actually, i'm still somewhat prone to wishful thinking. i'd really like the loch ness monster to be real -- aside from the fact the ecosystem isn't there to support it, the basic premise that something could have survived from the age of the dinosaurs isn't all that unreasonable. a large animal would be fantastic. unlikely, but possible. several species of non-avian dinosaurs did survive the KT extinction event, but not by very long. and a few somewhat large aquatic animals (ie: crocs) survive to this day.
but yes, i followed all the loch ness stuff when i was younger. and the mkele mbembe, and other lake monsters. and a bit of bigfoot, and ufos. always with a healthy dose of skepticism, of course.


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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 12 of 45 (414603)
08-05-2007 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by arachnophilia
08-05-2007 6:11 AM


Re: Propoganda
ah, see, even at 6 years old i would have been a smart-ass and told you that dinosaurs are land animals, and that if nessie is a plesiosaur, she'd be a marine reptile and not a dinosaur.
A precocious little smart-ass at that!
I guess my point (as much as I have one) is that depite the fact that dinosaurs caught my imagination as a child and that I happened to be exposed to scientific findings on dino related issues rather than creationist ones, I cannot claim that at 6 years old this had any rational basis.
Dinosaurs were just cool.
If I had initially been presented with two points of view on dinosaurs - one where they had been extinct for millions of years and one where they had been frollicking with cave children not too long ago - I think it quite possible I would have chosen the latter on the basis of it's appeal.
Once exposed to scientific thinking on dinos I agree that even at a young age you would start to see many YEC claims for what they are.
BUT it is that first 'appeal' that the creationists in the video are aiming for.
How do we counter that?

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 45 (414612)
08-05-2007 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Straggler
08-05-2007 6:55 AM


Creationist Conundrum is greater than that.
The first appeal is usually countered by peer and authority pressure, and by knowledge.
In the past such indoctrination was challenged by other kids, teachers and knowledge gained as one grows up.
That is actually what the Christian Conservatives are complaining about, what they call "A Spiritual War" or "An Attack on Christianity."
That is the "Secular Influence" they rail on about.
The problem they face is that in the past, truth and reality were winning out and the kids as they grew up and were exposed to other evidence, came to realize that what they had been taught were simply lies.
Their only possible response is the one they have taken, and that is to isolate the children and keep them from being exposed to the truth. This has led to the creation of literally tens of thousands of Avoidance Schools where the kids are sheltered, dozens of accreditation organizations as well as the US Home Schooling phenomena.
To give you an idea of the magnitude of this effort, here are a few facts.
American Association of Christian Schools writes:
We believe that this Statement of Faith is basic for Christian fellowship and that all born-again men and women who sincerely accept it and are separated from the world of apostasy and sin can, and should live together in peace, and that it is their Christian duty to promote harmony among the Believers.
Note the emphasis on "separated from the world of apostasy and sin" and that it has a goal of promoting harmony among the Believers.
The AACS has over 170,000 students and teachers and requires all to accept "We believe in creation, not evolution; that man was created by the direct act of God and in the image of God. "
In addition they will not allow membership to anyone or any organization that even accepts any other position. They say in their Statement of Faith:
We further believe in the Biblical doctrine of ecclesiastical separation, and therefore believe that churches and Christian schools should not be associated with, members of, or in accord with organizations or movements such as the World Council of Churches, the National Council of Churches, the Modern Charismatic Movement, or the Ecumenical Movement.
This is just one of the literally dozens of Accrediting Organizations that have sprung up over the last quarter century or so.
The goal is isolation, indoctrination and insulation.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 14 of 45 (414619)
08-05-2007 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
08-05-2007 11:41 AM


Re: Creationist Conundrum is greater than that.
Their only possible response is the one they have taken, and that is to isolate the children and keep them from being exposed to the truth. This has led to the creation of literally tens of thousands of Avoidance Schools where the kids are sheltered, dozens of accreditation organizations as well as the US Home Schooling phenomena.
I see it more as isolating the children from the 'evils' of the secular world rather than truth; after all, their beliefs are accepted by them as the truth.
I am an avid skier in the winter and once a year help a fundamentalist church youth group with a week-long ski trip. On my annual all-expense paid trip with the group there usually are 20 or so kids, most of them home-schooled.I am probably one of the very few 'secular' adults the kids are exposed to and I think they kind of use me as a lesson for the kids in how to convert the 'unsaved' - they are always trying to convert me.
The children are exceedingly polite and well behaved, and in this regards the parents have done an outstanding job. I sense a naive view about the real world, however, and this is no doubt due to the parents excessive efforts at control. Even on a ski trip there is a list of rules that border on the insane - for instance, whenever boys and girls are together, no matter where or when, they must be accompanied by an adult, even while riding a chairlift.
I have discussed this with the pastor before. He implied the level of control that the parents place on the kids is meant to prevent any exposure to temptation or evil. Evolution is never brought up in these conversations. Rather, issues like pornography, sex, drugs, ect. seem to be the concern. They see evil lurking at every turn, waiting to seduce their kids. It is a neurosis or hysteria.
Most of these families home school their kids and there is no cable TV, and they strictly limit what they watch. I asked him if this might be counter-productive as one day they are going to have to go out and get a job in the real 'secular' world. His reply was, by that time their level of Christian maturity will be at a level where they are able to handle the evils that are thrown at them.
My goal is not meant to dictate to others how to raise their kids, but the level of control I see borders on the insane. Once they are free I suspect some of the kids will probably let loose and party like madmen(or madwomen ).

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 15 of 45 (414622)
08-05-2007 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Grizz
08-05-2007 12:52 PM


Re: Creationist Conundrum is greater than that.
Once they are free I suspect some of the kids will probably let loose and party like madmen
The most shockingly hedonistic out of control sustained behaviour I have ever seen has been from those with socially stifled upbringings.
Once they get a taste of freedom the metaphorical floodgates just open.

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