Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Harun Yahya alert... again... :[
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 20 (33010)
02-24-2003 3:12 AM


sigh... am I the only one against Harun Yahya? You guys did a good job taking down ICR, AIG, Hovind, Behe, Dembski, Wells, DI, etc. but can't you see a bigger threat in the Harun Yahya company? This guy's holding the world in his hands!
WORLDWIDE TV CHANNELS THAT BROADCAST THE DOCUMENTARY FILMS OF HARUN YAHYA
Australia Islamic TV in Australia
Australia Channel 31 (local channel in Perth)
Australia Vision of Islam (sponsored by Australian Islamic College)
Azerbaijan Government Television
Bahrain Discover Islam
Bosnia-Herzegovina NTV
Bosnia-Herzegovina TV Srbac
Canada Vision of Islam TV (Pakistan TV Network)
Canada Canada National Learning Center
Croatia A lot of local TV channels
Germany A local TV that is dependent to AMT international
Germany TD1
India WIN TV
Indonesia Different TV channels
Indonesia Ar Rahman TV
Kazakhstan AS TV
Malaysia TV3 and other TV channels
Netherlands Feza TV
Netherlands TTA TV
Nigeria TV channels that are dependent to TV Authority
Nigeria Edo Broadcasting Service
Nigeria National TV
Pakistan Indus Vision
Pakistan Mutual Cable TV
Serbia TV Gornji Milanovac
Serbia TV Aleksinac
Serbia TV Paracin
Serbia TV Odzaci
Serbia TV Vicom (Gradiska)
S. Africa ITV Afrika
Tanzania Zanzibar Cable TV
Tanzania Cable local channel - Al Itrah Foundation
Ukraine Zhisa TV
UAE Al Majd TV
UAE Dubai TV
USA ACTV Cable Channel 21
USA Universal Truth
USA Islam: A Guide to Human Excellence
USA Amica TV
USA Pakistan Zindabad TV
USA Community Public Access Channel
USA Islamic Information Service TV (Los Angeles)
USA Arab American TV Chicago
USA Islamic Foundation of America
USA Islamic Center of Northeast Florida
USA Cox TV (California)
USA Zindabad TV
USA Channel 77
Yemen Yemen TV
Yugoslavia TV Jesenjin
Yugoslavia Elmag TV (Montenegro)
Yugoslavia Yu info
Yugoslavia TV Valjevo
[This message has been edited by Andya Primanda, 02-24-2003]

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Percy, posted 02-24-2003 10:37 AM Andya Primanda has not replied
 Message 3 by Coragyps, posted 02-24-2003 12:05 PM Andya Primanda has not replied
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 02-24-2003 3:46 PM Andya Primanda has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2 of 20 (33049)
02-24-2003 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
02-24-2003 3:12 AM


Sorry for the complacency. Maybe the threat will seem more immediate when I can actually get one of those stations.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 02-24-2003 3:12 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 3 of 20 (33060)
02-24-2003 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
02-24-2003 3:12 AM


Andya - I agree with you that Yahya is fairly scary. He certainly has a slick website, and seems very well funded. I saw a mention of him on a Christian fundy website the other day to the effect of "I certainly don't agree with his Islamic slant, but he sure has done his homework on the evils of Evolution!" Spooky.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 02-24-2003 3:12 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 4 of 20 (33076)
02-24-2003 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
02-24-2003 3:12 AM


Harun Yahya really doesn't have much presence outside the Islamic comunities. And what I've seen of his seems to recycle the same old rubbish Christian creationists use. Scary he might be, but how scary is he compared to Al-Qaeda ?
Really I think it is better for everybody right now if the fight against him is focussed within the Islamic community. There is enough hostility between Muslims and Western society already. If westerners attack Harun Yahya he'll likely use that to propaganda effect, using it to mear his Muslim opponents, too. If western society finds out more about Harun Yahya some of our more intolerant elements will probably use his existence as anti-Muslim propaganda. Looks like a no-win situation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 02-24-2003 3:12 AM Andya Primanda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by wehappyfew, posted 02-24-2003 6:51 PM PaulK has not replied
 Message 6 by Andya Primanda, posted 02-25-2003 1:35 AM PaulK has replied

  
wehappyfew
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 20 (33103)
02-24-2003 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by PaulK
02-24-2003 3:46 PM


But on the other hand...
Osama bin-Laden requires a strict fundamentalist support base. To the exent that Harun Yahya bolsters that scripture-literalist, narrow-minded, anti-science, anti-western mind-set, he is directly supporting terrorism - just as the KKK and neo-nazis in the U.S. frequently adopt Christian fundamentalist paradigms to further our own domestic kookisms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 02-24-2003 3:46 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 20 (33115)
02-25-2003 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by PaulK
02-24-2003 3:46 PM


I get your point. And I have a hard time myself doing an internal battle against such creationism. Not many Muslims are interested in science, but many are easily persuaded by the propaganda. In Indonesia, the most vocal proponents of Harun Yahya-ism is the political fundamnetalists, which are growing larger each time I checked.
Anyway, Harun Yahya, being a Turkish--the Turks are obsessed with being Western--are generally not anti-Western (just a little anti-Jew, but you'll find this stance in every Muslim). His [unorthodox] stance on the US/Iraq issue is 'sympathy to terrorist victims, Saddam please step down'.
I made an ongoing rebuttal of his work, but my website's currently down. And they knew of it. Check his article 'Reply to Andya Primanda' (available in several languages).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 02-24-2003 3:46 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by wj, posted 02-25-2003 2:19 AM Andya Primanda has replied
 Message 9 by PaulK, posted 02-25-2003 4:41 AM Andya Primanda has replied

  
wj
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 20 (33120)
02-25-2003 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Andya Primanda
02-25-2003 1:35 AM


Co-incidentally I was directed to a Harun Yahya website by a creationist. I asked him if he was aware that this was a fundamentalist muslim writer - I am awaiting his reaction.
I also noticed one of Harun Yahya's related sites is self-described as follows:
"Jesus will return to the world for a second time. He will unite all believers in God and bring peace to mankind, as proclaimed by the Prophet Mohammed and revealed in the Qur'an."
I wonder how many fundamentalist christians would react to this assertion. It would appear that anti-evolution makes for strange bedfellows.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Andya Primanda, posted 02-25-2003 1:35 AM Andya Primanda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Andya Primanda, posted 02-25-2003 3:17 AM wj has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 20 (33125)
02-25-2003 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by wj
02-25-2003 2:19 AM


Actually that's a common theme in Islamic theology. We believe that Jesus was not crucified, but lifted by Allah to Heaven. In near-apocalyptic times, Jesus will return to earth as Imam Mahdi, the leader of Muslims, where he would break the cross and convert Christians to Islam.
[might be offensive]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by wj, posted 02-25-2003 2:19 AM wj has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 03-07-2003 8:44 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 9 of 20 (33129)
02-25-2003 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Andya Primanda
02-25-2003 1:35 AM


I don't know if you are familiar with this website, but it might be useful. Maybe the people running it could be of help.
http://www.geocities.com/evrimkurami/

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Andya Primanda, posted 02-25-2003 1:35 AM Andya Primanda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Andya Primanda, posted 03-07-2003 4:21 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 11 by Andya Primanda, posted 03-07-2003 4:26 AM PaulK has replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 20 (33821)
03-07-2003 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by PaulK
02-25-2003 4:41 AM


How to respond to this...
Recently the local religious student circle distributed this article as a pamphlet in my campus. How can I refute it? I have read Britten's PNAS paper but I am clueless on how to explain it to others in layman's terms. I sent a complaint letter to the student organization behind it, and I might expect a discussion with them. This should be a great chance to expose Harun Yahya.
Anyway...
The "99 %" Myth is Dead
Evolutionists Admit That Humans and Chimps Are Not Genetically Similar
some excerpts:
A recent study shows that the evolutionist propaganda on this issue-like many others-is completely false. Humans and chimps are not "99% similar" as the evolutionist fairy tale went on. Genetic similarity turns out to be less than 95 %. In a news story reported by CNN.com, entitled "Humans, chimps more different than thought", they report the following:
There are more differences between a chimpanzee and a human being than once believed, according to a new genetic study.
Biologists have long held that the genes of chimps and humans are about 98.5 percent identical. But Roy Britten, a biologist at the California Institute of Technology, said in a study published this week that a new way of comparing the genes shows that the human and chimp genetic similarity is only about 95 percent.
Britten based this on a computer program that compared 780,000 of the 3 billion base pairs in the human DNA helix with those of the chimp. He found more mismatches than earlier researchers had, and concluded that at least 3.9 percent of the DNA bases were different.
This led him to conclude that there is a fundamental genetic difference between the species of about 5 percent.
...
When we look at genetic comparisons in general, we find surprising similarities which do not fit within the alleged evolutionary relationships between species. For example a genetic analysis has revealed a surprising 75 % similarity between the DNAs of nematode worms and man.iii According to the family tree made by evolutionists, the Chordata phylum, in which man is included, and Nematoda phylum were unrelated to each other even 530 million years ago. Thus, the % 70 similarity - a very high figure for humans and nematode worms, completely different and dissimilar life forms - does not imply any evolutionary relationship.
On the other hand, the analyses carried on some proteins show man as close to some very different living beings. In a survey carried out by the researchers in Cambridge University, some proteins of terrestrial vertebrates were compared. Amazingly, in nearly all samples, man and chicken were paired as the closest relatives. The next closest relative was crocodile.
...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by PaulK, posted 02-25-2003 4:41 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by wj, posted 03-07-2003 9:42 AM Andya Primanda has replied
 Message 20 by Ediacaran, posted 05-26-2004 8:25 PM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 20 (33822)
03-07-2003 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by PaulK
02-25-2003 4:41 AM


evrimkurami
PaulK, the bad thing is, I can't read Turkish. Anybody can?
The website seems to be run by hardcore secularists, exactly the ones that Harun Yahya co. is after. I am not too sympathetic with the herdline secularists either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by PaulK, posted 02-25-2003 4:41 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 03-07-2003 5:11 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 12 of 20 (33824)
03-07-2003 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Andya Primanda
03-07-2003 4:26 AM


Re: evrimkurami
Most of the stuff apears to be available in English. Even if you are not sympathetic to their political and religious views they would seem to be a potentially useful source on the science and on what Harun Yahya is up to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Andya Primanda, posted 03-07-2003 4:26 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 3217 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 13 of 20 (33836)
03-07-2003 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Andya Primanda
02-25-2003 3:17 AM


Comments in two areas
Hi Andya, I agree with the threat posed by this jerk. I just have not had teh spare time recently due to job problems, unfortunately I am not alone as the Biotech sector in the DC area has taken a pounding recently. I will take a look at the "paper" and try to help with a laymans description of the flaws.
Oh, as to the other part of the post, no offense taken. Although there is documentation from Roman times of the Followers of Cristus (what the Romans called Jesus), who were followers of a criminal who had been put to death by the Romans. This likely means crusifixtion as this is how the Romans excecuted people in Judea, the Jews would have stoned him. Not that this means anything to me other than a historical fact/concept/idea.
------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Andya Primanda, posted 02-25-2003 3:17 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
wj
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 20 (33843)
03-07-2003 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Andya Primanda
03-07-2003 4:21 AM


Re: How to respond to this...
Andya, as Yahya's explanation is that genetic similarities between humans and primates is due to common design rather than common ancestry, I think your strongest line of arguments is the shared pseudogenes. The presence of GLO pseudogenes is much better explained by common ancestry. Why would a divine creator burden the primate and human genomes with such junk? It seems to imply a divine creator who doesn't know how to do the job properly. And why do the distributions of shared pseudogenes reflect the ancestral relationships inferred by other evidences?
As to the exact degree of relatedness of humans and chimpanzees, what does it matter whether it is 99, 98 or 95%? I would challenge the creationists to show any genome comparisons which show another species more closely related to humans than chimpanzees or bonobos.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Andya Primanda, posted 03-07-2003 4:21 AM Andya Primanda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Andya Primanda, posted 03-08-2003 1:17 AM wj has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 20 (33905)
03-08-2003 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by wj
03-07-2003 9:42 AM


papers
It's a sad time for Indonesian biologists this week, because they are helpless to counter the rising wave of Turkish creationism. Two Harun Yahya co. 'scientists' Ali Sadun & Omer Ilicalli (or are they the real Harun Yahya?) are currently giving conferences and press releases in Indonesia, invited by fundamnetalist organizations, without much opposition, but I fear they would win pulic support. Insonesians in general had a dislike for debates (our culture's so obsessed with 'harmony' ) so none thought of putting these guys in a debate. They would even visit my university for a book-launching session next week!
To WJ:
Which papers can help me? I'd like to draw my ammunition from the primary literature.
I've got some colleagues planning to write and publish a refutation of Harun Yahya-ism, but most of them are versed in philosophy and theology and they would wrote their criticism along their fields of expertise. They rely on me to be their scientific authority (and I'm not even a BSc, at least until next month). The only prominent scientist which appreciate the damage HY creationism migh inflict in the minds of Indonesians is Prof Teuku Jacob, the paleoanthropologist in charge of Java men fossils. Others are either ignorant or indifferent to this...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by wj, posted 03-07-2003 9:42 AM wj has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 03-08-2003 8:32 AM Andya Primanda has not replied
 Message 18 by Itzpapalotl, posted 03-08-2003 9:35 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024