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Author Topic:   Forever Faithful: A Question for Creationists
Ammarice
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 95 (90396)
03-04-2004 9:14 PM


How do creationists just put their faith into God that he created the world and all of that other stuff (I am NOT well versed in the bible...so please just excuse me if I'm really ignorant...)I don't understand how people can put faith into something without proof... I mean, no one modern says god talks to them or something like that (granted, they'd be put in a mental institution... but it could be news) or anything miraculous like that... I might seem like a mathematical type for wanting proof (as a little side story, proofs suck because geometry is bad... except for circles... I like circles... anyway...) I don't always like things to be black and white, but as I'm somthing of an agnostic/christian/wiccan/druid cross religion wise... I just want to understand the whole creationist point of view... as for my religion thing... I believe that there are gods, but not one god... I celebrate Christmas and Easter cuz the rest of my family does.. I'm reading this thing on Druidcraft (a cross between Wiccan and Druid religions) which is very interesting, so my religion is a little piece of each... Druidcraft is really more because I find magic so interesting that its something of "research" for me... anyway, I'll try to stay on subject...
To summarize:
How are creationists able to, seemingly blindly, put there faith into creationism despite the scientific evidence behind evolutionism?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-04-2004 9:49 PM Ammarice has not replied
 Message 3 by funkman, posted 04-09-2004 3:28 PM Ammarice has not replied
 Message 84 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-30-2004 4:17 PM Ammarice has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 95 (90402)
03-04-2004 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ammarice
03-04-2004 9:14 PM


quote:
I find magic so interesting that its something of "research" for me...
Just as a side note... you should read up on an author named Peter Carroll. (No relation.) He writes about Chaos Magic, which is generally a cross between Crowley-style magic and high-end physics. Interesting stuff.

"Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river."
-Anya

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funkman
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 95 (98945)
04-09-2004 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ammarice
03-04-2004 9:14 PM


A very short answer to this question would be that true believers are given faith by the Holy Spirit, and this faith convinces them of the truth of God's Word. Evolution cannot fit into the teachings of the Bible, and the only alternative that does is creation. So despite the "evidence" for evolution, the creationist believes in the Bible no matter what because it is the absolute authority.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by MrHambre, posted 04-09-2004 3:59 PM funkman has replied
 Message 5 by 1.61803, posted 04-09-2004 4:04 PM funkman has replied
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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 4 of 95 (98951)
04-09-2004 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by funkman
04-09-2004 3:28 PM


So you wouldn't be convinced by any amount of evidence, because you've already made up your mind that evolution doesn't fit into your Christian worldview. Wouldn't it be more logical to assume that evolution should fit into your Christian worldview, since there's evidence to support evolution's scientific validity?
regards,
Esteban Hambre

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Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 5 of 95 (98952)
04-09-2004 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by funkman
04-09-2004 3:28 PM


Ok lets do a experiment: You and I jump out of an airplane.. You put your faith in the holy spirit and i will put my faith in a parachute and physics.

"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

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funkman
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 95 (98955)
04-09-2004 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by MrHambre
04-09-2004 3:59 PM


So you wouldn't be convinced by any amount of evidence, because you've already made up your mind that evolution doesn't fit into your Christian worldview.
I believe God is infallible, and man is fallible. I believe God's evidence (the Bible) is infallible, and man's evidence is fallible. I have every reason to trust God, who has never been proven wrong before; and every reason to not trust man, who has been proven wrong many times before. Until you can prove the Bible is wrong, than all your "evidence" will be useless as far as changing my mind. Perhaps a rather closeminded statement on my part, but there can be only one interpretation of the truth, and I'll stick with the one that's worked.
Wouldn't it be more logical to assume that evolution should fit into your Christian worldview, since there's evidence to support evolution's scientific validity?
No, it wouldn't. As I stated before, evolution does not fit into the Biblical worldview, so it would be contradictory and illogical for me to say I believe the Bible and also evolution which contradicts the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 9 by Percy, posted 04-09-2004 7:01 PM funkman has replied
 Message 85 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-16-2004 5:48 PM funkman has not replied

  
funkman
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 95 (98956)
04-09-2004 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by 1.61803
04-09-2004 4:04 PM


Ok lets do a experiment: You and I jump out of an airplane.. You put your faith in the holy spirit and i will put my faith in a parachute and physics.
Not the most enticing of experiments. But why not follow through with that thought. I believe that God is all-powerful and has a purpose for everything. If we were to do this experiment, I have complete faith that God could protect me from harm. If He did, great for me, but I bet you would find some way of expaining it away. If He didn't, even better for me because I get to go home to heaven to be with Jesus forever, and for you and all those that witnessed the experiment - who knows? maybe you'll think to yourself "Wow, that guy had alot of faith, so much that he was willing to die for it. I don't have that much faith in anything. I wonder what made him different." And maybe you'd turn to the Bible to see why I believed what I did. And maybe you'd get saved. Or maybe you wouldn't, but like I said before, I believe God has a reason for everything, and He will work out all things to His glory.

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Replies to this message:
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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 8 of 95 (98966)
04-09-2004 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by funkman
04-09-2004 4:23 PM


Funkman,
I never mentioned the Bible. However, if man's evidence is wrong and the Bible is always right, you must also believe that God causes it to rain, as it says in the Bible (Jeremiah 5:24, among a few other places). Is there really only one interpretation of the truth?
regards,
Esteban Hambre

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 9 of 95 (98969)
04-09-2004 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by funkman
04-09-2004 4:23 PM


funkman writes:
I believe God's evidence (the Bible) is infallible,...
But wasn't God's Word actually written by fallible men? And isn't the Bible therefore fallible?
Aren't your interpretations of the Bible the interpretations of fallible men?
In order to demonstrate the infallibility of the Bible, I think you'd have to do something along these lines:
  • Provide evidence that God exists.
  • Provide evidence that God is infallible.
  • Provide evidence that men inspired by God produce infallible texts.
  • Provide evidence that the Biblical authors were inspired by God at the time they wrote.
  • Provide evidence that the fallible Biblical interpretations of men can somehow approach infallibility.
This is impossible, of course, but I'm really only making the point that belief in an infallible Bible is a matter of faith, not evidence, and that you really accept an infallible Bible out of faith, and not because you've been provided evidence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 10 of 95 (98971)
04-09-2004 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by funkman
04-09-2004 4:31 PM


funkman writes:
If we were to do this experiment, I have complete faith that God could protect me from harm.
Okay, but you might want to consider Matthew 4:7 before you jump: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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BobAliceEve
Member (Idle past 5395 days)
Posts: 107
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Joined: 02-03-2004


Message 11 of 95 (99062)
04-10-2004 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Percy
04-09-2004 7:08 PM


Good job
Percy, you are right on with this quote.
To "The Atox", God does speak to people today and they are not in mental institutions because of it. He is real and constant. He has not stopped speaking; people have stopped listening.
To get to know Him is a personal journey which I highly recommend.
Best regards,
Bob, Alice, and Eve

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Replies to this message:
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funkman
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 95 (99378)
04-12-2004 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Percy
04-09-2004 7:01 PM


This is impossible, of course, but I'm really only making the point that belief in an infallible Bible is a matter of faith, not evidence, and that you really accept an infallible Bible out of faith, and not because you've been provided evidence.
I agree. I have never made the contention that evidence is what causes me to believe the Bible. The Bible speaks for itself on the points that you list that would be necessary to prove its infallibility - but, of course, that requires that you start out with a belief that the Bible is a reliable source of truth, which I do. And believing that is a matter of faith.
To your question of the Bible being fallible because it was written by fallible men, again I take a stance of faith in the Bible when it says "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God." (II Timothy 3:16) This verse means that when the fallible men were writing, they were writing only what infallible God wanted them to write.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Percy, posted 04-09-2004 7:01 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 16 by Percy, posted 04-14-2004 12:06 PM funkman has replied

  
funkman
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 95 (99379)
04-12-2004 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Percy
04-09-2004 7:08 PM


Okay, but you might want to consider Matthew 4:7 before you jump: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
I stand corrected. Thank you, Percy, for this excellent use of Scripture (and for showing that evos don't always use the Bible out of context).

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funkman
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 95 (99380)
04-12-2004 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Percy
04-09-2004 7:08 PM


Hooray! My first double post!!
[This message has been edited by funkman, 04-12-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 15 of 95 (99938)
04-14-2004 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by funkman
04-12-2004 9:09 AM


Erroneous post deleted. --Admin
[This message has been edited by Admin, 04-14-2004]

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