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Author Topic:   Did Justice Elena Kagan lie to Congress?
Sarah Bellum
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Posts: 823
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 1 of 61 (895499)
07-04-2022 9:33 AM


When Justice Kagan was appointed solicitor general in 2009, Senator Cornyn (R-Tex.) asked her about same-sex marriage. She said, "There is no federal constitutional right to same-sex marriage."
With her vote in Obergefell v. Hodges she did a 180, affirming that there is a constitutional right to same-sex marriage.
Can she be impeached for lying to Congress?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Percy, posted 07-04-2022 11:14 AM Sarah Bellum has replied
 Message 4 by Theodoric, posted 07-04-2022 11:16 AM Sarah Bellum has replied
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 07-04-2022 12:16 PM Sarah Bellum has replied
 Message 7 by AZPaul3, posted 07-04-2022 12:24 PM Sarah Bellum has replied
 Message 35 by nwr, posted 07-05-2022 10:59 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Admin
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Message 2 of 61 (895500)
07-04-2022 11:08 AM


Thread Moved from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Percy
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From: New Hampshire
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Message 3 of 61 (895501)
07-04-2022 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Sarah Bellum
07-04-2022 9:33 AM


Might Kagan have clarified during followup (hint, hint, you might want to look up a fuller accounting of what she said).
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-04-2022 9:33 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2022 2:37 PM Percy has replied

  
Theodoric
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Posts: 7403
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 4 of 61 (895502)
07-04-2022 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Sarah Bellum
07-04-2022 9:33 AM


Why don't you try to.make an actual argument to discuss.
I think this is a very poor OP. Present an argument why you think it is a lie or relevant to anything. Make an argument she lied. Until then this is not worthy of a response.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-04-2022 9:33 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Tanypteryx, posted 07-04-2022 11:42 AM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 9 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2022 9:15 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Tanypteryx
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Posts: 3419
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(2)
Message 5 of 61 (895504)
07-04-2022 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Theodoric
07-04-2022 11:16 AM


Re: Why don't you try to.make an actual argument to discuss.
It's all a ploy to show anyone who points out the 3 Turd appointees to the court committed perjury multiple times during their confirmation hearings, must be hypocrites. Brain Girl never makes a valid argument.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


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ringo
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Posts: 19720
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Message 6 of 61 (895506)
07-04-2022 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Sarah Bellum
07-04-2022 9:33 AM


If the Supreme Court can change its collective mind about abortion - in the wrong direction - why can't one member change her mind about same-sex marriage - in the right direction?

"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-04-2022 9:33 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2022 2:36 PM ringo has replied

  
AZPaul3
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Posts: 6828
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.3


(3)
Message 7 of 61 (895507)
07-04-2022 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Sarah Bellum
07-04-2022 9:33 AM


It's Politics
First, at the time the question was asked Kagan was well within bounds and propriety. There was no such right.
quote
"Constitutional rights are a product of constitutional text as interpreted by courts and understood by the nation's citizenry and its elected representatives," Kagan wrote. "By this measure, which is the best measure I know for determining whether a constitutional right exists, there is no federal constitutional right to same-sex marriage."
  —kagan
Remember this was prior to her nomination to SCOTUS. This was her hearing for solicitor general which enforces law but not interpret the law. Once on SCOTUS the emphasis changes.
There was no lie like when Kavanaugh and Gorsuch actually lied to congress during their confirmation hearings discussing Roe. Those were actual lies, now known to be purposefully told to cover their actual intent once on the court. This whole Kagan thing is a right-wing attack on those in congress that want to impeach Kavanaugh and Gorsuch for deliberate lying in sworn testimony in contempt of congress.
Can she be impeached for lying to Congress?
Since you asked:
Impeachment is a political process, not a legal one. That is why the framers placed the power to try and convict on impeachment in the hands of the congress and not the courts. The courts require specific language and standards that congress is not required to keep. The definition of “high crimes and misdemeanors” is left legally and politically vague for a reason. The definition is left for the political process to define at the time of offense. Anything the congress so pleases can be an impeachable offense while the politics of the process keeps impeachment from major abuse.
In the present case the impeachment of Kavanaugh and Gorsuch, or even Kagan, while legally doable in the congress, I doubt the politics of such a move makes consideration even viable let alone achievable. Not going to happen.

Edited by AZPaul3, .


Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-04-2022 9:33 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2022 2:44 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 823
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 8 of 61 (895520)
07-05-2022 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tanypteryx
07-04-2022 11:42 AM


Re: Why don't you try to.make an actual argument to discuss.
I have no particular desire to support any of the three justices you allude to. The recent decisions, especially the egregious firearms case, have done a great deal of damage. But threats to impeach justices for their opinions or - even worse - threats to simply enlarge the Court with ideologically correct appointees, which some otherwise respectable commentators have made recently, have a whiff of banana republic about them.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by PaulK, posted 07-05-2022 9:48 AM Sarah Bellum has replied
 Message 12 by Theodoric, posted 07-05-2022 9:52 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 823
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 9 of 61 (895522)
07-05-2022 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Theodoric
07-04-2022 11:16 AM


Re: Why don't you try to.make an actual argument to discuss.
quote
. . . Until then this is not worthy of a response.
Well then, thank you for not replying!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Theodoric, posted 07-04-2022 11:16 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Theodoric, posted 07-05-2022 9:26 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7403
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 10 of 61 (895526)
07-05-2022 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Sarah Bellum
07-05-2022 9:15 AM


Re: Why don't you try to.make an actual argument to discuss.
Still no argument to support your assertion?
Rule 4 Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation.
Admin- Can we at least have the original poster attempt some sort of argument?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2022 9:15 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2022 2:30 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17178
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 11 of 61 (895527)
07-05-2022 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Sarah Bellum
07-05-2022 9:13 AM


Re: Why don't you try to.make an actual argument to discuss.
I think that the Republican efforts to pack the Court with ideologically-correct justices have far more of a “whiff of banana republic about them” than any measures to correct the situation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2022 9:13 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2022 2:53 PM PaulK has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7403
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 12 of 61 (895528)
07-05-2022 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Sarah Bellum
07-05-2022 9:13 AM


Re: Why don't you try to.make an actual argument to discuss.
which some otherwise respectable commentators have made recently
Who? What did they say? Quotes and sources, please.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2022 9:13 AM Sarah Bellum has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Sarah Bellum, posted 07-05-2022 2:26 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 823
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 13 of 61 (895535)
07-05-2022 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Theodoric
07-05-2022 9:52 AM


Re: Why don't you try to.make an actual argument to discuss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Theodoric, posted 07-05-2022 9:52 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Theodoric, posted 07-05-2022 2:42 PM Sarah Bellum has replied
 Message 19 by Theodoric, posted 07-05-2022 2:45 PM Sarah Bellum has replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 823
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 14 of 61 (895536)
07-05-2022 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Theodoric
07-05-2022 9:26 AM


Re: Why don't you try to.make an actual argument to discuss.
I'm quite enjoying this conversation we're not having. Please continue . . .

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Theodoric, posted 07-05-2022 9:26 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Sarah Bellum
Member
Posts: 823
Joined: 05-04-2019


Message 15 of 61 (895537)
07-05-2022 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ringo
07-04-2022 12:16 PM


Do you really think she changed her mind? Or simply told a convenient lie? Or maybe there was a third alternative, that she used enough cleverly chosen verbiage so that what she said wasn't a lie, but could be interpreted by her listeners in disparate ways?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 07-04-2022 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Percy, posted 07-06-2022 9:12 AM Sarah Bellum has seen this message but not replied
 Message 46 by ringo, posted 07-07-2022 12:06 PM Sarah Bellum has not replied

  
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