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Author Topic:   Profitable Christian Meetings
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 1 of 52 (781213)
04-02-2016 8:10 AM


This OP concerns some important characteristics of good Christian gatherings. I will draw both from the Bible and from personal and corporate experience to pass on to interested parties various "best practices" if you will, of good Christian meetings.
This may be considered a continuation of some discussion about spiritual gifts I was having on another thread. Perhaps Bible Study is a good place for the thread.

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 Message 3 by Phat, posted 04-02-2016 8:16 AM jaywill has replied

  
AdminPhat
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Message 2 of 52 (781215)
04-02-2016 8:14 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Profitable Christian Meetings thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 3 of 52 (781216)
04-02-2016 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jaywill
04-02-2016 8:10 AM


Meet & Greet
Sounds like a good topic. Will you be discussing formal Christian meetings...such as what we call churches and congregations? Will you explain what you consider to be the right way versus the wrong way to have a meeting? Or is there such a thing as a WRONG way...?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jaywill, posted 04-02-2016 8:10 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by jaywill, posted 04-02-2016 8:35 AM Phat has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 4 of 52 (781217)
04-02-2016 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
04-02-2016 8:16 AM


Re: Meet & Greet
My comments on profitable Christian meetings will probably not follow an order, but be miscellaneous and accumulative.
First I would say every believer in Jesus Christ should feel free to have a meeting of other believers in their home. The concept of Christians gathering in these days really should be renewed.
I do not say every meeting in a home of a Christian is a church. But I do suggest a believer should not feel his apartment or home or house cannot be regular place for a few fellow believers to gather for a Christ centered meeting.
Two or three brothers or sisters in Jesus Christ can have a most profitable time gathering regularly in the home of a Christian. The gathering is not for gossip. But Jesus Christ and should be the center.
Because we tend to drift into loose talk and gossip, it is good to let the time be of specific length. When the prayer or singing or teaching and fellowship have taken place for a given duration of time, it is good to disperse. This way the blessing will not dissipate into worldly chatter, spiritual death spreading, and other forms of natural talkativeness that may quench the Holy Spirit.
This is not a legal matter. It is a good principle. "We start at this time. We fellowship for this amount of time. We say goodbye for another good meeting on another day."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 04-02-2016 8:16 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 04-02-2016 10:25 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 5 of 52 (781218)
04-02-2016 8:47 AM


Something Like "Jury Duty"
I said that every Christian should feel qualified to have a small gathering in their home. Your home is the sphere of your sovereignty. You ought not feel you need "permission" to have fellow believers or seeking people in your home for a Christ centered meeting.
A small group meeting is somewhat like a meeting of a jury. I mean each person should feel free to contribute. Some direction may be set by a responsible person. But aside from some minimal setting of the direction of the meeting, each one should feel free to contribute something spiritually edifying to the meeting.
Here is where all have to learn neither to be over domineering or too shy. To think you have nothing to say is one extreme. To demand the floor over much with a long winded talk also is not good.
We should show our love for one another by allowing others to enter in to the speaking.
In the next post I will address something Faith was concerned about. I think Faith expressed concern about everyone speaking. If all things are done in good order, it is profitable that each Christian have something profitable to speak as long as it is Christ honoring and refreshing to the spiritual sense of all participating.
Even to say " Lord Jesus, we thank you tonight." or "I ask for prayer for a certain matter. I trust the Lord to help." is edifying. Even to say "Amen, and Praise the Lord Jesus" with the outflow of the Holy Spirit is building and edifying and encouraging to all who hear.

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Faith, posted 04-02-2016 9:34 AM jaywill has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 6 of 52 (781222)
04-02-2016 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by jaywill
04-02-2016 8:47 AM


Re: Something Like "Jury Duty"
I like the basic idea and would be happy to participate in something like that.
abe: Do get some feeling of there being pressure on people to "say something" meaning "something spiritual" which could be a problem.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jaywill, posted 04-02-2016 8:47 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by jaywill, posted 04-02-2016 10:36 AM Faith has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 52 (781223)
04-02-2016 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jaywill
04-02-2016 8:35 AM


Re: Meet & Greet
jaywill writes:
This is not a legal matter. It is a good principle. "We start at this time. We fellowship for this amount of time. We say goodbye for another good meeting on another day."
I have been at churches before where weekly small group studies were encouraged and I have attended a few. There are certainly pros and cons to such a meeting. I have a few questions.
  • Show us Biblical support for such meetings so that we can stay properly focused in Bible Study.
  • At my last church, the only time believers got together was to watch the Super Bowl. Do you feel football can be included in the meeting? Jar would be happy to make a beer run if he decides to attend.
  • Are non believers welcome at the meetings? Will they feel safe or will they feel like they are attending a multi level marketing presentation?
    ABe: Im joking of course. Show us the Bible Study...
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by jaywill, posted 04-02-2016 8:35 AM jaywill has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 10 by jaywill, posted 04-02-2016 11:20 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jaywill
    Member (Idle past 1942 days)
    Posts: 4519
    From: VA USA
    Joined: 12-05-2005


    (1)
    Message 8 of 52 (781224)
    04-02-2016 10:36 AM
    Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
    04-02-2016 9:34 AM


    Re: Something Like "Jury Duty"
    No one should feel under pressure. No one should feel there is a LEGAL obligation to speak.
    Here is what Paul wrote:
    " For you can all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged. " (1 Cor. 14:31)
    Grasp the tone here. Christians come together and all CAN prophesy - one by one.
    To prophesy here is to speak on behalf of God. This does not mean it has to be supernatural prediction of future events. It means to speak spiritual encouragement with some amount of truth from God's word. All, one by one, brothers and sisters, should be encourated to utter something which convey's God to people and even into people.
    " You CAN ... ALL ... prophesy ONE BY ONE "
    So where are we ? I said every Christian should feel he or she needs no "permission" to have a home meeting of a few others for enjoying the Holy Spirit.
    And speaking for God is encouraged but not legally demanded. Some people are naturally talkative. They have to learn to show love to others by curtailing their excessive habit to dominate.
    Others are naturally quiet and let others do all the talking. These must show their love for others by speaking up for the Lord Jesus.
    Eloquence is not what is sought but spiritual refreshment and honesty.
    Some people are very eloquent. Others are not. It is not what we are naturally that edifies. It is what we are under the leading of the Holy Spirit. We may have to deny what we are naturally and go against our tendency.
    Are you use to dominating conversation, hogging the floor, with long stories? You have to show your love to the others by getting to the point. Hopefully that will be a point centered of Jesus Christ. Speak while you have the flow of the Spirit. When the Spirit stops flowing, you stop and give someone else a chance.
    Are you use to sitting silent and letting others do all the talking? You have to go against yourself. If you are experiencing the Lord Jesus, you will want to overflow and tell someone. You should not quench the Spirit or stop the flowing out of the Spirit. Speak up. Get to the point. Speak something profitable of the truth and of your experience of Christ.
    All can speak for God one by one. This habit is more profitable then week after week sitting in the pew to hear an eloquent sermon from the same person all the time.
    If a Christian leader is wise, he or she will teach others to speak up for God one by one so that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by Faith, posted 04-02-2016 9:34 AM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 9 by Faith, posted 04-02-2016 10:57 AM jaywill has replied

      
    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 9 of 52 (781225)
    04-02-2016 10:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 8 by jaywill
    04-02-2016 10:36 AM


    Re: Something Like "Jury Duty"
    In Paul's words I don't hear the idea that everyone has to speak something, just that those who have a prophecy are to be orderly about it and not all speak at the same time; but somehow I keep hearing you using "one by one" to mean everybody must eventually say something. Am I mishearing you?
    I do believe Paul meant "prophecy" as a direct supernaturally imparted word from God which in those days before the New Testament was written was how God led the Church. The principle of orderliness applies in any case, but since we no longer have supernaturally imparted revelation as they did I'm not even sure the passage should be taken to apply to us.
    Nevertheless the basic principle of the meeting, in which there is freedom for everybody to exercise whatever gift they have, would be a welcome antidote to the passivity of always sitting and listening. I do have to say that in my church there is a lot of freedom for individual participation in the Sunday School which precedes the main service.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by jaywill, posted 04-02-2016 10:36 AM jaywill has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by jaywill, posted 04-02-2016 12:20 PM Faith has replied

      
    jaywill
    Member (Idle past 1942 days)
    Posts: 4519
    From: VA USA
    Joined: 12-05-2005


    (1)
    Message 10 of 52 (781227)
    04-02-2016 11:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
    04-02-2016 10:25 AM


    Re: Meet & Greet
    quote:
    I have been at churches before where weekly small group studies were encouraged and I have attended a few. There are certainly pros and cons to such a meeting. I have a few questions.
    When the Apostle Paul says "... all may LEARN and all may be encouraged" this precludes that there will be room for learning.
    There are pros and cons. But with repetition and practice "all" will learn.
    Week by week the saints will learn. And prayer FOR the meeting certainly will help them to improve. So you should not be discouraged if there are some cons for awhile.
    God is less concerned for our mistakes then we think. But if meeting by meeting we show our love for the Lord and for one another, we will learn and grow. Then there will be more pros then cons eventually.
    quote:
    Show us Biblical support for such meetings so that we can stay properly focused in Bible Study.
    Quite so. Start here:
    " What then brothers? Whenever you come together; each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation.
    Let all things be done for building up." (1 Cor 14:26)
    It is the principle that should be grasped here rather than too legalistically adhering to the specifics.
    "EACH ONE HAS ..." What does each one have ? Something of the word of God and of the flowing out of the Holy Spirit, each one should come prepared to HAVE for the meeting.
    In the Old Testament feasts of Deuteronomy God said that the people were not to appear before the Lord empty.
    " Three times a year all your males shall appear before Jehovah your God in the place which He will choose: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, at the Feast of Weeks, and at the Feast of Tabernacles.
    And they shall not appear before Jehovah empty-handed." ( Deut. 16:16 )
    They were to bring the top tenth of what they produced on the Good Land. And they were to come to the Feasts WITH something of the top portion of what they produced.
    The New Testament parallel is that as we enjoy and experience Jesus Christ through the week, we do not come to the Christian meeting EMPTY-HANDED. We should bring a praise, a teaching, a Psalm, a word of encouragement, a praise, a tongue or interpretation, a teaching, a song, even a prayer.
    We should not appear as if we have NOTHING. We should not come before the Lord empty handed. This does not mean we all have to be continuously victorious spiritual giants. Even if you ask the brothers and sisters for PRAYER for a need, you can still do so in a Christ honoring way.
    The meeting is a feasting together. And like the Old Testament the saints should not arrive at the meeting with nothing, empty-handed.
    Again:
    "You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread; as I cammanded you, seven days you shall eat unleavened bread at the appointed time in the month of Abid, for in it you came out from Egypt.
    And no one shall appear before Me empty." (Exodus 23:15)
    This is the picture in the OT. And the caption under the picture for the New Testament believers is First Corinthians 14. Each one has. Each one comes with something edifying for the gathering. We should not come empty.
    What do we bring? We bring our enjoyment of Jesus Christ.
    The good land of Canaan is like Christ our Promised Land. And as they labored on the land to bring firstfruits to the feast, the Christians labor on experiencing Jesus Christ to bring the top portion of their enjoyment to the Christian meeting.
    Exodus 23 goes on in verse 16:
    "And you shall keep the Feast of the Harvest, of the firstfruits of your labors from what you sow in the field, and the Feast of Ingathering, at the end of the year when you gather in your labors out of the field." (v.16)
    Our experience of Jesus through each day is our laboring on Jesus as our Promised Land. All of our experience we cannot bring. But the top portion, the firstfruits of our enjoyment of Christ, we should bring to the Christian meeting. We should not show up empty handed.
    All may learn that this is the way. When all gathered begin to learn not to arrive at the meeting with no enjoyment of the experience of Christ to share, there will be far more pros then cons.
    Cont. below
    quote:
    At my last church, the only time believers got together was to watch the Super Bowl.
    This is a waste of time. And this is not a gathering in the name of the Lord Jesus. This is a gathering in the name of a worldly sport and accomplishes zero for God's purposes.
    This is not a Christian meeting really. It may be some Christians together to watch a football game. But Christ is not the center. And no one will receive spiritual building up by such a gathering.
    This is for the flesh.
    quote:
    Do you feel football can be included in the meeting? Jar would be happy to make a beer run if he decides to attend.
    We need to be recovered as Christians from a time wasting gathering like this.
    This is a meeting like the worship of the golden calf.
    I do not suggest that you go out of your way to condemn those who have not yet realized that they are just in the flesh by coming together for a Super Bowl watching.
    I simply encourage you to have a small meeting in your home. You will get more enjoyment for your spirit in a small gathering to exalt Jesus and get into the Word of God. You do not have to go tell all those believers that they were in the flesh and condemn them.
    Just, in the future, be an example and instead of gathering to the Super Bowl, gather around the exhaust-less rich and wonderful Jesus Christ. That will be a memorial in eternity for God's will.
    Don't go back and condemn people. Be a quiet example of a more profitable way for Christians to come together to build one another up in the Faith.
    If you want to go to a Super Bowl watching, that is up to you. Jesus is in you and will go with you. But don't pretend that this is a Christian meeting centered upon Him.
    quote:
    Are non believers welcome at the meetings? Will they feel safe or will they feel like they are attending a multi level marketing presentation?
    Unbelievers can and should be invited for the presentation of the Gospel.
    After a few have gained experience in meeting together in love, they may acquire the skill of inviting a unbelieving seeking person for the purpose of helping them to believe.
    The subject matter of the meeting then must be considered in light of the fact that an unbeliever is there. The Lord will give you wisdom if you pray with the regular participants about the matter.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by Phat, posted 04-02-2016 10:25 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    jaywill
    Member (Idle past 1942 days)
    Posts: 4519
    From: VA USA
    Joined: 12-05-2005


    Message 11 of 52 (781232)
    04-02-2016 12:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
    04-02-2016 10:57 AM


    Re: Something Like "Jury Duty"
    quote:
    In Paul's words I don't hear the idea that everyone has to speak something, just that those who have a prophecy are to be orderly about it and not all speak at the same time; but somehow I keep hearing you using "one by one" to mean everybody must eventually say something.
    To say "HAS to speak" is asking for trouble. To say "ALL can prophesy" is his tone. If it takes time for some to learn to be brave to speak up, those who are more accustomed to speaking must patiently bear with them in love.
    quote:
    Am I mishearing you?
    Paul's desire was that speaking for the Lord would be the customary practice, even more so than speaking in tongues.
    " So then, my brothers, desire earnestly the prophesying, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. " (1 Cor. 14:39)
    The Apostle Paul wants the saints to earnestly desire to be able to speak forth from God - to prophesy. The Apostle Paul has given a word of balancing so that the speaking in tongues would not be wild and excessive causing confusion and befuddling visitors. What he says is - Do not FORBID it. But earnestly desire rather that intelligible words would be spoken, ministering to the hearers something that all can understand.
    He does not forbid tongue speaking. But he recommends that we especially seek the gift to speak intelligible words. Even FIVE words he would rather speak to build up the attendants of the meeting rather than a thousand words in an unknown tongue.
    "I thank God, I speak in tongues more than all of you, But in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, that I might instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue." (14:19)
    Do not forbid tongue speaking.
    But the Apostle would rather speak FIVE intelligible words to instruct others rather than an avalanche of ten thousand mysterious sounds in a tongue.
    Can you get the burden here? All things are to be ordely. All things are to be done in love. Do not legalistically forbid tongues OR insist no one leaves without speaking.
    There is balance in Paul's instructions. Five words of prophesy to instruct are more valuable than many many words in tongues.
    Paul says he PREFERS that the skill to prophesy would be learned and developed by the saints.
    "I desire that you all speak in tongues, BUT ESPECIALLY that you would prophesy; and greater is he who prophesies than he who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, that the church may receive building up." (v.5)
    1.) Don't FORBID speaking in tongues.
    2.) But more so, prophesy.
    3.) To prophesy is greater and more profitable than speaking in tongues.
    Can you get the tone and balance of Paul's fellowship ? He spends practically all of chapter 14 pulling the believers back from the confusing and excessive over use of public tongue speaking.
    He encourages that words exalting the Lord and ministering spiritual instruction are of more usefulness to BUILDING UP. All can prophesy, one by one.
    Paul compares the profit of prophesying intelligibly over the speaking in tongues, to the Christian meeting.
    "If therefore the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak in tongues, and some unlearned in tongues or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are insane?
    But if all prophesy and some unbeliever or unlearned person enters, he is convicted by all, he is examined by all;
    The secrets of his heart become manifest and so falling on his face, he will worship God, declaring that indeed God is among you." (14:23-25)
    The relative value of prophesying is compared to the value of tongue speaking in the church meeting.
    Even FIVE WORDS to instruct, like " Amen! Hallalujah! Jesus is Lord! " is intelligible and of more profit then a long tongue speaking with no interpretation.
    We have to get the overall burden of Paul in these chapters.
    When he says "IF ALL PROPHESY" it suggests that the best meeting is that all prophesy one by one (31).
    The problem may be that some Christians regard to prophesy as predict only, in a supernatural way of foretelling the future. However, to prophesy is to speak words from God and imparting God's presence to people, mainly for encouragement to turn to God.
    We see that in Acts 15:32.
    " And Judas and Silas, also being prophets themselves, exhorted the brothers through much speaking and confirmed them.
    It does not say that Judas and Silas predicted some future event. It does not say that they foretold some future event. But speaking they encouraged and confirmed the believers.
    We should drop the notion that to prophesy is to only miraculously foretell some future event.
    quote:
    I do believe Paul meant "prophecy" as a direct supernaturally imparted word from God which in those days before the New Testament was written was how God led the Church.
    When Paul says that the spirits of the prophets is subject to the prophets I am sure he means that this prophesying is not a "Thus Says the Lord ..." kind of speaking the Old Testament prophets practiced.
    Any kind of performance that one is beside himself and cannot control himself is most often phony. To prophesy one by one is orderly and not choatic as if everyone is supernaturally carried away.
    "For you can all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
    And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets; For God is not a God of confusion but of peace." (vs. 31-33)
    This may not be the typical chaotic performance one sees at a Pentecostal meeting. This may not be what you see at a Binny Hinn revival meeting with people falling all over the place displaying near hysteria and lack of self control.
    But this is the biblical practice of an orderly speaking in the meeting one by one for mutual encouragement and learning. Even to speak FIVE WORDS of a Christ centered nature is profitable.
    The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. The prophet has self control. He or she may know how to hold their peace and speak in turn. The prophet knows when enough is enough and to give someone else a turn. He has self control. He does not necessarily wait for an inspiration to FALL upon him to suddenly shout "Thus Says the Lord - My people San Francisco will fall into the ocean ... !"
    This is usually performance and play acting done in some charismatic and/or Pentecostal meetings. The spirit of the prophets is SUBJECT to the prophets. And "self control" is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22,23)
    quote:
    The principle of orderliness applies in any case, but since we no longer have supernaturally imparted revelation as they did I'm not even sure the passage should be taken to apply to us.
    I have tried to explain that prophesying here, as Judas and Silas did, was not a miraculous matter. And to speak encouragement spiritual words bringing people to God is needed in the church age.
    I stop here and continue in another post.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by Faith, posted 04-02-2016 10:57 AM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 12 by Faith, posted 04-02-2016 6:59 PM jaywill has replied
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    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 12 of 52 (781252)
    04-02-2016 6:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by jaywill
    04-02-2016 12:20 PM


    charismatic gifts
    In Paul's words I don't hear the idea that everyone has to speak something, just that those who have a prophecy are to be orderly about it and not all speak at the same time; but somehow I keep hearing you using "one by one" to mean everybody must eventually say something.
    To say "HAS to speak" is asking for trouble. To say "ALL can prophesy" is his tone. If it takes time for some to learn to be brave to speak up, those who are more accustomed to speaking must patiently bear with them in love.
    As I said, I didn't hear "HAS to speak" in Paul's words, only in yours. And it still sounds to me like that's what you're saying. Not that all must speak on demand of course, but that you do expect "all" eventually to be able to prophesy. But "all" can only refer to those who have the gift, not all in the congregation. Scripture itself tells us that ALL don't prophesy and didn't then, as it was a special gift and only some had that gift. "Do all prophesy?" Paul asks elsewhere, "Do all speak in tongues?" No, God gifts individuals as He wills and it's never ALL who receive a particular gift. Now, again, perhaps you don't mean to imply this, but it sounds like it.
    Am I mishearing you?
    Paul's desire was that speaking for the Lord would be the customary practice, even more so than speaking in tongues.
    I was mishearing YOU, not Paul.
    However, you are applying the miraculous gifts to us today, which I've said I've come to regard as not in force for today. This is going to make conversation a bit rocky I think. Also you seem to want to give a special meaning to "prophecy" that I don't think is valid. It's always meant having a direct word from God, which makes it one of the supernatural/ miraculous gifts that I believe have ceased. It doesn't necessarily mean speaking something about the future, but it does mean speaking the direct words of God we hear within our spirit.
    ABE: Today it is often used simply to describe teaching or exhorting from the Bible, but I'm not sure that meaning is in the Bible itself.
    "Prophecy" as practiced in the charismatic churches is usually not prophecy at all, it has nothing in common with New Testament prophecy, it's much more like fortunetelling or psychic knowledge, usually of a very trivial and even ungodly nature.
    I believe we may still hear from God nevertheless, but not as an ongoing gift, rather as a once-in-a-while occurrence. My experiences of this have been in private, instructions and corrections I've needed personally, not something intended for others.
    In a group setting I think the Holy Spirit may certainly stir up the memory of a scripture that applies to someone else's situation. I've had others speak very pertinent scripture to me when I've needed it. It would be nice to be in a group where that kind of sensitivity to the Spirit was frequent.
    But tongues have definitely ceased. It took me a long time to be sure of this because I myself had received that "gift." It never felt right to me though and it certainly never had the New Testament function of demonstrating the universality of the gospel. It was just a repeating pattern of sounds, a fairly lengthy pattern, and it can still happen to me. It's certainly not my own doing, but I think it's in the realm of "soul power" as Watchman Nee describes it, which can be stirred up in Christians although it's not a good thing because it comes from the sin nature we inherit from Adam. Nee himself says he experienced the ability to know what people were thinking and at first thought it was a gift from God, then realized it wasn't and turned away from it. It's likely that soul power accounts for most of the charismatic phenomena today, the true gifts of the Spirit having ceased. The Strange Fire Conference didn't address this side of it, just the ceasing, this explanation comes only from Nee that I know of. He discusses for instance the laughing phenomenon that swept American charismatic churches in the 90s as the "laughing revival." The same thing had occurred among Christians in China in the 30s, and Nee was one of those who tried to reveal its true nature as not from God.
    " So then, my brothers, desire earnestly the prophesying, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. " (1 Cor. 14:39)
    The Apostle Paul wants the saints to earnestly desire to be able to speak forth from God - to prophesy. The Apostle Paul has given a word of balancing so that the speaking in tongues would not be wild and excessive causing confusion and befuddling visitors. What he says is - Do not FORBID it. But earnestly desire rather that intelligible words would be spoken, ministering to the hearers something that all can understand.
    He does not forbid tongue speaking. But he recommends that we especially seek the gift to speak intelligible words. Even FIVE words he would rather speak to build up the attendants of the meeting rather than a thousand words in an unknown tongue.
    Yes but see above. If you have the time and the interest you might listen to some of the Strange Fire Conference some time, particularly Pennington's talk.
    "I thank God, I speak in tongues more than all of you, But in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, that I might instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue." (14:19)
    Do not forbid tongue speaking.
    But the Apostle would rather speak FIVE intelligible words to instruct others rather than an avalanche of ten thousand mysterious sounds in a tongue.
    Can you get the burden here? All things are to be ordely. All things are to be done in love. Do not legalistically forbid tongues OR insist no one leaves without speaking.
    Of course, but if there are no longer any valid tongues this shouldn't be happening at all in any Christian group. Again, see above. I do not accept that there is any valid tongues speaking today at all. I believe the Strange Fire Conference definitively put an end to that idea.
    The rest of your post continues in the same vein.
    When Paul spoke of prophesying, in the context of the New Testament Church that had to mean the miraculous gift of God's direct impartation to a person. He didn't mean just giving a Bible-knowledgeable encouragement to someone, which is the most common way we speak in the Spirit today.
    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by jaywill, posted 04-02-2016 12:20 PM jaywill has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 14 by jaywill, posted 04-03-2016 5:00 AM Faith has replied

      
    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 13 of 52 (781264)
    04-03-2016 2:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 11 by jaywill
    04-02-2016 12:20 PM


    Re: Something Like "Jury Duty"
    I do disagree with some of the things you've said here but I don't want to neglect to say that I do like the basic idea even if I disagree with some of the particulars.
    I think small groups are needed for the Church to function rightly, and I particularly like your emphasis on seriousness, keeping the focus on God and spiritual matters and avoiding falling into fleshly attitudes. That alone would be a terrific achievement for most of the groups I've been in.
    I am personally "allergic" to anything that feels like pressure to behave in a certain way, and some of what you said raises that problem for me. But if the objective is to enhance the spiritual gifts of each participant and that is done without pressure it sounds wonderful and there should be many ways of bringing that about. Being asked to pray before coming to the group would probably help a lot with developing the right tone and attitude of seriousness, for instance. Then group prayer, then a call for a Bible reading or verse etc, or perhaps one person would be designated to offer that. Etc. Anything that would promote genuine spiritual listening and responding would be terrific. I wouldn't like to see the charismatic version of the "gifts" in play though, that would bother me a great deal having come out of that kind of situation years ago for good reason.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by jaywill, posted 04-02-2016 12:20 PM jaywill has not replied

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     Message 18 by Phat, posted 04-03-2016 2:44 PM Faith has not replied

      
    jaywill
    Member (Idle past 1942 days)
    Posts: 4519
    From: VA USA
    Joined: 12-05-2005


    Message 14 of 52 (781265)
    04-03-2016 5:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
    04-02-2016 6:59 PM


    Re: charismatic gifts
    quote:
    As I said, I didn't hear "HAS to speak" in Paul's words, only in yours.
      —Faith
    What I hope you should have heard was that love, forbearance, and patience encourages prophesying without being legal.
    I just came from the Saturday night small group meeting at the home of one of the couples in the church life. There were about nine to twelve brothers and sisters in the meeting.
    After arriving and singing, we ate a meal together. Each one is encouraged to bring something for the corporate meal. There is of course fellowship during the meal. And afterwords we have a time to get into the word of God and practice to speak forth for the Lord to one another - to prophesy.
    As I recall, I heard from everyone in that section of the meeting except for perhaps two people. No one condemned those from whom we did not hear a prophesy.
    As long as we speak in singing or in prayer or in praise, that is healthy also.
    As long as we hear a few words either addressed to all present or addressed to a smaller number sitting aside for more personal fellowship, that is also good.
    When Paul says we cannot say Jesus is Lord except in the Holy Spirit, that is positive speaking forth to the hearers for their blessing.
    "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking in the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed; and no one can say, Jesus is Lord ! except in the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor. 12:3)
    When we gather together it is profitable even to proclaim for all or someone to hear "Jesus is Lord" . That person cannot say that Jesus is Lord except in the Holy Spirit.
    So why not encourage even new believers to come and proclaim "Jesus is Lord" ? . Paul said even five words could instruct and build up one another if spoken from the spirit with a heart attuned to God.
    What I hope you hear is not that we act as "speaking police" and legally burden the participants with a demand. But we certainly foster an atmosphere where all are opened to one another in love and all are encouraged to prophesy and to speak forth from the Holy Spirit.
    Now if we go back to First Corinthians 12:1-3 you will notice that Paul was concerned that the Christians would not be DUMB. He strongly indicates that idolatry of various forms can render people dumb, unwilling to speak.
    "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. (v.1)
    You know that when you were Gentiles, you were always being led away to dumb idols, whenever and however you were led. (v.2)
    Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking in the Spirit of God says, Jesus is accursed; and no one can say, Jesus is Lord! except in the Holy Spirit. "(v.3)
    The worshiping of dumb idols tends to render the worshiper dumb also. Christians coming together should exalt Christ and not be dumb. They should not appear before the Lord empty.
    I have no heart to argue over this legally. It is a matter of fostering an atmosphere where all believers are encouraged to speak forth from the Spirit of God in them. Even to say "Jesus is Lord! Praise our Lord Jesus! Lord Jesus, we love you" is life imparting to the gathering.
    When you enter into some places the atmosphere seems designed to put a hush over everyone present. The very architecture of some places seems to impose an intimidating silence over all who enter. "I dare not speak. This is a solemn place, I must be DUMB because of the solemnity of the atmosphere."
    Today the Lord is recovering the fostering of an atmosphere among Christians to utter and speak and prophesy. Of course it is not speaking anything for the sake of breaking the silence. It is to speak in the Holy Spirit.
    No one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit. And if the participants want to affirm themselves that they are in touch with the Holy Spirit they may proclaim Jesus is Lord. Jesus is our Lord! Praise our Lord Jesus!.
    There is nothing miraculous here. But there is something very valuable and building up as it ministers the facts of the universe; the truth of the world - Jesus Christ IS Lord.
    So I think you should not be overly concerned when I speak of the encouragement to speak and to prophesy. I don't think you should assume legalism is in play here. Rather encouragement abounds here.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by Faith, posted 04-02-2016 6:59 PM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 20 by Faith, posted 04-03-2016 6:32 PM jaywill has replied

      
    jaywill
    Member (Idle past 1942 days)
    Posts: 4519
    From: VA USA
    Joined: 12-05-2005


    Message 15 of 52 (781266)
    04-03-2016 5:06 AM


    quote:
    And it still sounds to me like that's what you're saying. Not that all must speak on demand of course, but that you do expect "all" eventually to be able to prophesy.
    We have seen the tremendous profit, in the local churches, in having "all saints speaking" meetings. It was the desire of Paul that the Corinthian saints seek to speak forth God in prophesying:
    "Pursue love, and desire earnestly spiritual gifts, BUT ESPECIALLY ... that you may prophesy." (14:1)
    Love and prophesying are emphasized here. It is not just prophesying which Paul encourages. It is to pursue love, (which he elaborated on in the previous chapter 13), and the earnest desire to prophesy. I would hope that you would read " ... especially" as a qualifier on what the believers should desire. So in the local churches we earnestly and especially, in love, foster a meeting atmosphere that encourages Christians to SPEAK UP for the Lord. That is even to speak divine life out from within their spirit.
    Notice that in chapter 13 the speaking apart from divine life is compared to a lifeless tinkling cymbal or a lifeless noisy brass instrument:
    " If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. " (13:1)
    That means a sound without life. We Christians have the divine life of God. Our speaking should be from the Spirit of divine life within our innermost being. And love for God and for the brethren is the expression of divine life. We know we have passed out of death into life because we love the brethren.
    " We know that we have passed out of death into life because we love the brothers." (1 John 3:14a)
    Brotherly love is an indication of divine life dwelling in us. Love is an expression of divine life. My fellowship about speaking in the meeting is not without love, hence it is not a police like legalism void of brotherly love.
    Perhaps you read about all saints prophesying and cautions arise in your mind. "Oh no. Here we go. The speaking police insist that I have to utter something in the gathering."
    You should not have this fear. Chapter 14 is not devoid of chapter 13's emphasis on growing up and having love, which is the outflow of the divine life within. We do not force people to speak. We foster an atmosphere where they need not be dumb but utter even a few words to impart life to themselves and the hearers.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
    Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

      
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