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Author Topic:   The blurry line between religious and crazy
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 1 of 95 (720937)
03-01-2014 12:51 AM


At what point do we determine religious notions go from harmless beliefs to harmful problems (edit: maybe not harmful problems, per se, but behavior indicative of a problem) even when no one is actually harmed? How do we make a distinction between "crazy talk" and mere faithful devotion? Abraham would, I should hope, be locked away if he pulled his stunt nowadays. Yet, here we have millions of people that laud him for it, many claiming it to be the beacon of devotion and faith. Something to strive for, even.
I ask this based on a recent story about a college football player that left the NFL combine because god told him to. He returned 3 days later and it was discovered that he spent those 3 days in the airport because he claims god told him to just sit there.
Prospect leaves Scouting Combine, says God told him to
Combine departure has people close to Adam Muema concerned
Missing running back Adam Muema resurfaces
The consensus (fan opinions on message boards) is that this is crazy behavior. Behavior of someone needing help. But sports culture is rife with religious belief. Tim tebow is a very recent example of where a players relgiocity is praised. Hell, he had an anti abortion commercial during the Super Bowl last year. No one thinks anything wrong with him other than being kinda strange. Reggie White made it no secret that god told him to play football. Again, not crazy.
(note: I use fan perspective because it is not clinical diagnosis I am looking for, but public perception and how we as society should want to view this subject)
I don't want this to focus on sports, it just seemed like a good catalyst because it is a culture where heavy religiosity is expected and praised and "god told me X" or "god gave me this gift" is brushed off most of the time. It is far too easy as an atheist to say it is all crazy talk, but that doesn't do much good as far as the bigger picture goes and as far as advancing any discussion with non like-minded people.
Social Issues and Creation/Evolution seems like the obvious choice.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.
Edited by hooah212002, : I can't for the life of me word that first sentence the way I want

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 95 (720939)
03-01-2014 2:06 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the The blurry line between religious and crazy thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
saab93f
Member (Idle past 1394 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


Message 3 of 95 (720940)
03-01-2014 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
03-01-2014 12:51 AM


While that case is unfamiliar to me, I only comment in a more general level. IMO what you described a blurry line is that only because of popularity. If a Muslim were to tell the American public about Allah commanding him to do something weird, he'd be considered downright crazy but when it's xian God telling to do stuff, it is at least somewhat accepted.
You could of course make a bold claim and say that everything religious is crazy but fortunately most is benign.
We are talking about similar issue as in the moderates vs. fundamentalists - the benign moderates claim that the fundies do not represent their faith yet they are unable to condemn them because in doing so they'd be condemning themselves too.

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Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 95 (720948)
03-01-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
03-01-2014 12:51 AM


Bats In The Belfry?
It sounds more like cognitive dissonance to me. The kid was quite religious. He loved football but also was told to seek Jesus first. He is overly anxious and is emotional, however. Perhaps excessive hyper emotionalism is when this behavior crosses the line.

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Phat
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Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
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Message 5 of 95 (720949)
03-01-2014 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by saab93f
03-01-2014 5:17 AM


GOD told me....
If a Muslim were to tell the American public about Allah commanding him to do something weird, he'd be considered downright crazy but when it's xian God telling to do stuff, it is at least somewhat accepted.
I have been in the situation where I was convinced that God told me to do something. The young man has a high anxiety level probably feeling guilt over being famous and how Jesus is going to fit in. He needs some wise counsel.(secular would be best, but I doubt he would listen)

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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 6 of 95 (720954)
03-01-2014 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
03-01-2014 11:42 AM


Re: GOD told me....
I have been in the situation where I was convinced that God told me to do something.
As have I. However, I avoid claiming the God told me to do anything. I say "I feel this is the right thing to do" or whatever. Claiming that God told me to do something feels to me like trying to earn credibility for my choices by making them God's choices, not my own. I just try to do what is right and let Him guide me in doing right, just like Jesus said, "Don't swear by heaven or earth, but let your yes be yes and your no be no." Claiming that God told me to do it is like swearing by His name.
I hate it when our worship leader says stuff like "the Holy Spirit lead me to sing this song" because then if I don't like the song or am uninspired by it, then I am against the Holy Spirit.
So when people say things like "God told me to ... " I am skeptical of their motives and/or their sanity. Instead they should simply say "I feel this is the right thing to do ... "
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 95 (720958)
03-01-2014 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
03-01-2014 12:51 AM


about a college football player that left the NFL combine because god told him to.
Interesting choice of example.A decision not to attend the combine is one that many pro athletes make. It is not surprising that someone would agonize about it, pray about, or waffle about it.
The sitting in the airport part is silly, but ultimately harmless. There is no need for any of us who are not NFL team owners to care if it is crazy. I mean it's just sports which is of no real consequence. Of course fans don't think that way, and it is fans that you are going to find on message boards.
On the other hand I know a story about a pastor who prayed for an adult to recover from cancer who 'expressed disappointed' that her flock member under went conventional and successful cancer treatment. The whole episode was very hurtful to the family.
I remember another story where a person in who assumed that a salary mistake by her company was a 'gift from God' she'd been praying for. Much to her surprise, the company eventually noticed the mistake and sought to get its money back. Crazy or not crazy?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 8 of 95 (720960)
03-01-2014 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by NoNukes
03-01-2014 1:00 PM


.A decision not to attend the combine is one that many pro athletes make.
Right there in the article(s) it says that he did go to the combine, but left because god told him to.
The sitting in the airport part is silly, but ultimately harmless.
Yes, it IS ultimately harmless. But at what point do we use these sorts of actions to indicate mental health problems? Is it ok to be crazy as a shit house rat as long as you talk about one of the publicly accepted gods? If he said it was Zeus talking to him, does that change anything?
There is another football example that comes to mind. Michael Sam: the first openly homosexual high profile athlete and potentially the first openly gay NFL athlete, depending on if he gets drafted. If this same person that I mentioned in my OP left the combine because god told him he didn't want him being around a homosexual, would you still feel as though he was making a sound decision free from criticism? Would he be justified in his rationale? I mean, it's just his harmless belief, right? Faith is a-ok in her beliefs (AZ thread) because god said so, right?
(note: I am not calling into question ones right to have these beliefs. Instead, looking at how we as a (hopefully) enlightened society view them. You liberal christians are supposed to be joining enlightened society, aren't you?)
There is no need for any of us who are not NFL team owners to care if it is crazy.
Again, my intended direction of the discussion is not about how we, or you, feel about this particular individual or instance, but about where we draw the line between harmless belief and crazy talk. The first line of my post says exactly this.
I mean it's just sports which is of no real consequence.
Except it is very real consequence and NOT "just sports". The amount of dedication one would have already put in to get himself to the NFL combine means it is no longer "just a sport" and now a career choice. That would be like saying professional programmers "just fart around on computers" while participating in an internship.
Of course fans don't think that way, and it is fans that you are going to find on message boards.
I think you've missed the point entirely. I used this example because (as I already said), sports is a culture that looks past this sort of behavior most of the time but in this case it is viewed as irrational behavior. What makes that distinction? We have political representatives that say similar things daily and no one (except atheists) bats an eye. What does it take for the moderately religious to finally say "ok, you're nuts" when someone claims god talks to them? Or do you honestly think it is normal for someone to talk to god or have god talk to them? Was GW not applauded for saying god told him to invade Iraq?
On the other hand I know a story about a pastor who prayed for an adult to recover from cancer who 'expressed disappointed' that her flock member under went conventional and successful cancer treatment. The whole episode was very hurtful to the family.
I remember another story where a person in who assumed that a salary mistake by her company was a 'gift from God' she'd been praying for. Much to her surprise, the company eventually noticed the mistake and sought to get its money back.
Crazy or not crazy?
If you're asking me, I say crazy on both accounts. Delusional, even. But I am a bias party since I think they are looney just for believing a god exists in the first place.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 9 of 95 (720961)
03-01-2014 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
03-01-2014 12:51 AM


I'm hesitant to call somebody "crazy" on the basis of their religious activity.
I have known someone who was schizophrenic. And it is different from what we typically see with the religious.
Perhaps "naive and gullible" would be a better fit.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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dadman
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 45
From: wichita Kansas USA
Joined: 02-19-2014


(1)
Message 10 of 95 (720966)
03-01-2014 5:29 PM


people just need to get educated
Edited by AdminPhat, : spam removed
Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 95 (720969)
03-01-2014 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by hooah212002
03-01-2014 2:20 PM


A decision not to attend the combine is one that many pro athletes make.
Right there in the article(s) it says that he did go to the combine, but left because god told him to.
I was aware of that. I just don't find the distinction of any great consequence.
Would he be justified in his rationale? I mean, it's just his harmless belief, right? Faith is a-ok in her beliefs (AZ thread) because god said so, right?
Your questions seems to be drawn to whether acting on religious belief is crazy. Does Faith actually say that God told her the earth was 6000 years old? I cannot recall her ever saying that.
I was taught that if your drinking causes life problems then you are an alcoholic. I would draw the line on what constitutes a belief that renders you crazy in a similar fashion.
Football players sometimes show up at the combine and perform at the same, sorry levels they've always performed at. Is that a crazy delusion?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 12 of 95 (721004)
03-02-2014 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
03-01-2014 12:51 AM


I've done some fairly crazy things without God telling me to. I've also decided not to do a few things because they were too crazy.
In the end, I don't think religious people are more likely to do crazy things than non-religious people.
Religious people may be more likely to credit God with their good decisions and blame themselves for their bad decisions but they're still their own decisions.

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MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 3207 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


Message 13 of 95 (725336)
04-25-2014 8:52 PM


Are we including the crazy fundamentalist theists who flew jumbo jets with full passenger manifests into buildings on 9/11..? They were all devout believers. Some if not most of the suicide bombers in Iraq are devout believers. Or is it just Muslims that do crazy stuff: except for Branch Davidians, and the People's Temple in Jonestown, and crazy Christian cults. What about crazy Christian individuals..?
Sam Harris once pointed out that if you waved your hands over your waffles and said a few Latin phrases and then insisted that they had turned into the body of Elvis, you'd be crazy. But if you believe a wafer turned into Christ in exactly the same way, then you're just a Catholic.
Are we prepared to allow an affirmative defense in our courts that God told the accused to do whatever heinous acts they did..?

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 14 of 95 (726716)
05-11-2014 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by hooah212002
03-01-2014 2:20 PM


destination/s
The sitting in the airport part is silly, but ultimately harmless.
Yes, it IS ultimately harmless. But at what point do we use these sorts of actions to indicate mental health problems?
Curiously, I look at this and say it is quite reasonable ... if nothing else it is a metaphor for "where do I go from here"
Do I go home?
Do I go back to the combiine?
Do I go to become a priest?
Do I go someplace else?
Any reasonable person invariably (imho) goes through these situations to larger or smaller degrees at some point in life ... or they let life define their path.
Enjoy

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by our ability to understand
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 15 of 95 (726718)
05-11-2014 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
05-11-2014 12:50 PM


Re: destination/s
Curiously, I look at this and say it is quite reasonable ... if nothing else it is a metaphor for "where do I go from here"
Yes, well, acting out metaphors is in fact a bit crazy. If a man knows some weighty secret that he must reveal, and instead he blows a whistle, releases a cat from a bag, and spills some beans, we would not form a high estimate of his rationality. If he also said that God told him to do these things, we'd think he'd gone completely bonkers.

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