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Author Topic:   are "stand your ground" laws license to kill?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1 of 40 (719505)
02-14-2014 3:41 PM


One of the jurors in the trial on the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman said she thinks Zimmerman got away with murder.
Now we have another case ...
Michael Dunn Jury Goes Second Day of Deliberations Without Verdict - ABC News
quote:
The Florida jury in the murder trial Michael Dunn ended its second day of deliberations without a verdict.
It's like he claims after the fact that it was self defense and made up a lot of his own testimony -- testimony that is contradicted by his fiance, the other boys in the car, and his behavior after the shooting.
Will the "stand your ground" law allow him to get away with murder?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 40 (719508)
02-14-2014 3:54 PM


Thread Moved from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3 of 40 (719510)
02-14-2014 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
02-14-2014 3:41 PM


Thanks to ALEC these laws have spread like a fungus to several states now, and they are a move in the wrong direction.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 4 of 40 (719523)
02-14-2014 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
02-14-2014 3:41 PM


Yes. They are a license to kill anyone that makes you feel uncomfortable.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 5 of 40 (719525)
02-14-2014 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
02-14-2014 3:41 PM


Yup. Especially melanin-rich people. That's what those laws are written for.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 6 of 40 (719868)
02-18-2014 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Coragyps
02-14-2014 5:56 PM


attackers are not defending ... they are attacking
'Stand Your Ground' Linked To Increase In Homicides : NPR
quote:
Comparing States
This chart, based on data provided by Texas A&M researcher Mark Hoekstra, compares homicide rates in states that have stand your ground laws with homicide trends in states that don't have the laws. The vertical y-axis represents an adjusted homicide rate that takes into account a state's population, pre-existing crime trends and other factors.
"Our study finds that, that homicides go up by 7 to 9 percent in states that pass the laws, relative to states that didn't pass the laws over the same time period," he says.
As to whether the laws reduce crime by creating a deterrence for criminals he says, "we find no evidence of any deterrence effect over that same time period."
"We find that there are 500 to 700 more homicides per year across the 23 states as a result of the laws," he said. There are about 14,000 homicides annually in the United States as a whole.
Another study I saw showed a 3x increase in gun deaths since passing these absurd laws.
It goes from ridiculous to absurd: both Zimmerman and Dunn instigated the confrontations before claiming they had to defend themselves, but now ...
South Carolina
quote:
n armed intruder is making a Stand Your Ground argument in a murder trial, saying he shouldn’t be prosecuted for shooting and killing the man whose home he broke into because it looked as though the man was about to shoot him first.
Really???
At least their supreme court is stepping in ... sort of ...
quote:
The arguments the high court wants to hear apparently don’t involve the substance of the law — they involve at what point in a trial process a judge should hold a full hearing about whether evidence can be introduced about whether the defendant can assert that he enjoys immunity from prosecution because he was in fear for his life when he used deadly force. If a judge were to grant immunity, then a trial would not have to be held.
But there is hope ...
New Hampshire
quote:
The Democrat-controlled New Hampshire House of Representatives voted narrowly Wednesday to approve legislation that would repeal the state's Stand Your Ground law.
The bill's passage sets the stage for debate in the Republican-controlled state Senate over the future of a law first approved in 2011. ...
If nothing else these laws should not apply to people that instigate confrontations.
Really.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 7 of 40 (719874)
02-18-2014 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by RAZD
02-18-2014 10:12 PM


Re: attackers are not defending ... they are attacking
Not sure why you bothered because it seems that you will be accused of posting unsupported assertions.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(2)
Message 8 of 40 (719877)
02-18-2014 11:23 PM


Encouraging Stupid
The part that bothers me the most about these laws is that it gives stupid people a false sense of justification for firing off their guns in the general direction of people. Unfortunately, there is no test for stupid that people have to pass when they purchase a firearm. I happen to think that we should have laws that discourage people from doing stupid things with firearms, not encourage them.

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 40 (719878)
02-18-2014 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Coragyps
02-14-2014 5:56 PM


Going from memory:
quote:
They don't hate you because you're black, they hate you because of the way you act.
-KRS-one

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 40 (719879)
02-18-2014 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Taq
02-18-2014 11:23 PM


Re: Encouraging Stupid
The part that bothers me the most about these laws is that it gives stupid people a false sense of justification for firing off their guns in the general direction of people.
I agree that we should minimize that. It can be accomplished through education, like concealed-carry classes.
Unfortunately, there is no test for stupid that people have to pass when they purchase a firearm.
But that goes for almost any dangerous and deadly item. We encourage liberty, until you're shown to be unable to handle it. We shouldn't restrict the rights of everyone, because some can't handle it.
I happen to think that we should have laws that discourage people from doing stupid things with firearms, not encourage them.
Why don't we just have laws for discouraging people from doing bad things in general. Oh wait, we do. Some just don't follow them.
Let's not punish the law-abiders though, okay?
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 40 (719880)
02-18-2014 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by RAZD
02-18-2014 10:12 PM


Re: attackers are not defending ... they are attacking
Another study I saw showed a 3x increase in gun deaths since passing these absurd laws.
I would expect that criminals who are assaulting people would be shot to death more in states that allow their law-abiding citizens to protect themselves.
But that's not a bad thing. Did that study distinguish that?

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 12 of 40 (719882)
02-18-2014 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
02-18-2014 11:37 PM


Re: Encouraging Stupid
I agree that we should minimize that. It can be accomplished through education, like concealed-carry classes.
Unless those are required before purchasing a gun (as well as regular refresher courses), I really don't see how this helps.
But that goes for almost any dangerous and deadly item. We encourage liberty, until you're shown to be unable to handle it. We shouldn't restrict the rights of everyone, because some can't handle it.
We already restrict rights because of that very thing. We don't allow everyone to buy automatic weapons, or large explosives. The right to carry a firearm for the purpose of protection was never considered an unlimited right.
There is also the right of moving about in public without being shot. That one needs to be protected as well.
Why don't we just have laws for discouraging people from doing bad things in general. Oh wait, we do. Some just don't follow them.
Let's not punish the law-abiders though, okay?
If we get rid of the "stand your ground" laws, how does that punish law-abiders?

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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 13 of 40 (719883)
02-18-2014 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
02-14-2014 3:41 PM


Michael Dunn's neighbor had this to say:
Did I ever hear him say he wanted to shoot somebody? Not directly. b I'm the type of person that that's the last thing that I would be contemplating. I don't want to have a confrontation with anybody when I have a gun, anybody that does is predisposed, in my opinion, to kill somebody. If you're looking for confrontations just because you have a gun? There's no question in my mind that people that are looking for confrontations when they have a gun, Someday, they're going to find it. When I heard about this situation with Michael Dunn I was like "There you go, I KNEW it. Sooner or later he was gonna kill somebody."
And there do seem to be people who spend their whole lives waiting for that one glorious day when they'll be legally justified in shooting someone.
Like this guy. At last, he's got him a couple of trespassers! He's not going to risk warning them off his property, or calling the police, or firing a warning shot, or letting them see him brandish his gun. If he did that, they might survive. Instead he picks them off sniper-style.
Turns out they weren't actually on his property, but apart from that it was the perfect non-crime.
A similar blunder was made by Gayle Muhs. This charming gun-nut had a sign outside his house reading "Trespassers will be shot. Survivers will be reshot!! Smile I will." So when he thought it was legal for him to open fire on a party of two adults and two children, well, in this sad world we live in no-one should miss out on a chance to smile. "Laugh and the world laughs with you", as the poet wrote, "weep and you weep alone". Now if only the "trespassers" had actually been anywhere near his property, that would have been sweet, because how often do you get to kill a seven-year old boy by shooting him in the head?

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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 14 of 40 (719894)
02-19-2014 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dr Adequate
02-18-2014 11:59 PM


Like this guy. At last, he's got him a couple of trespassers! He's not going to risk warning them off his property, or calling the police, or firing a warning shot, or letting them see him brandish his gun. If he did that, they might survive. Instead he picks them off sniper-style.
The two men he shot, who brothers, were on their own property which they had just bought and were looking at there shed. The two men shot were black and the man that shot them were white. I am pretty sure that race was a factor. Sad,

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saab93f
Member (Idle past 1394 days)
Posts: 265
From: Finland
Joined: 12-17-2009


(2)
Message 15 of 40 (719898)
02-19-2014 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dr Adequate
02-18-2014 11:59 PM


A similar blunder was made by Gayle Muhs. This charming gun-nut had a sign outside his house reading "Trespassers will be shot. Survivers will be reshot!! Smile I will." So when he thought it was legal for him to open fire on a party of two adults and two children, well, in this sad world we live in no-one should miss out on a chance to smile. "Laugh and the world laughs with you", as the poet wrote, "weep and you weep alone". Now if only the "trespassers" had actually been anywhere near his property, that would have been sweet, because how often do you get to kill a seven-year old boy by shooting him in the head?
Stories like these make me wanna throw up. Why oh why are you Americans so hung on the 2nd amendment that you cannot see the hurt it causes. Stand your ground laws are just atrocious - I cannot comprehend how any semi-reasonable human being would support them. If you are in a dire need, you do what you have to but these laws lower the threshold to use deadly force basically nonexistent.
Edited by saab93f, : Typo

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