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Member (Idle past 1292 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: 14C calculations | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1292 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
In doing research for my new version of the age thread I came across this:
Radiocarbon Date calculation
quote: Thus it appears that all the "14C-age" calculations are based on the old half-life value of 5568 years instead of the revised half-life of 5730 years ... and this is so (a) they can be compared to older dates so calculated and (b) to ensure that corrections would not be applied twice. My interest is to convert graphs of "14C-age" vs calendar age to show ln[14C‰] vs calendar age. It seems to me that Aon is a constant representing the 14C content in 1950 (although this is complicated by the 1890 wood standard correction for radioactive decay to 1950). There also has to be a tie to 12C or total carbon .. ie Asn and Aon are counts of 14C/gram carbon (when using ALS) or similar, and this should result in the raw data via reversing the age formula:
Asn = Aon &bul; e^(-t/8033) Anyone know what a good number for Aon is and what the volume of carbon it represents?by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) |
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Thread copied here from the 14C calculations thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 1993 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Can't help you with your specific question.
In dealing with >600 radiocarbon dates I've obtained, I've always used either the measured age and calibrated using Calib. 4.3, or used the conventional age and calibrated using Calib. 5, 6, or now 7. Calib. 7 includes the new IntCal13 and Marine13 calibrations curves. When you calibrate using the recent curves, such as IntCal13 and Marine13, a lot of factors are taken into account, so you don't have to deal with them individually. [By the way, one of your quotes is from Taylor (1987). I worked with Taylor on a proposal for a radiocarbon project a number of years ago, but it never came together.]Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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herebedragons Member (Idle past 744 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: |
Hi Coyote ...
Out of curiosity, could you give some examples using the 4 different calibration techniques you mention (measured age + Calib. 4.3; conventional age +Calib.5; c.a.+Calib. 6.; c.a.+Calib. 7) to compare the calibrated dates? Maybe give a couple different ranges of dates, say 2 kya, 6 kya, and 20 kya for example. I am just curious about how much these calibration curve updates have affected adjusted dates over the different revisions. Maybe you could use some older data that you used one of the older systems on and then plug those numbers into the new system (?) HBDWhoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for. But until the end of the present exile has come and terminated this our imperfection by which "we know in part," I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 1993 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Sure!
Here is a radiocarbon date I received a few years ago. The measured age was 498040 and the conventional age was 539040. The conventional age was calculated by the laboratory using a C13/C12 measurement of -0.1. This corrects for isotopic fractionation, as the heavier isotopes (C13 and C14) are taken up into the food chain at lower rates than C12. This sample was a piece of mussel shell. The C13/C12 figure for mussel shell, at -0.1, is very typical of what we see. The laboratory gave a calibrated age of BC 3660-3490 (5610-5440 BP) at 2 sigma, with an intercept of 5560 BP. As this sample was shell, they used the marine reservoir correction (Delta-R) of 22535. Given that this sample was submitted several years ago, the calibration curve they used was IntCal09/Marine09. Recalibrating this using Calib. 7.0 with the newer IntCal13/Marine13 gives the following at 2 sigma: BC 3696-3449 and BP 5645-5398, with the intercept remaining at 5560 BP. Calibrating this using the old Calib. 4.3 (using Marine98) gives the following: BC 3659-3474 and BP 5608-5423, with the intercept at 5548. So, the intercept changed by 12 years between the 1998 marine dataset and the two newer marine datasets. This is insignificant as we're dealing with 40 in the initial measurement anyway. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1292 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
From the site in Message 1:
quote: This still gives you an age based on the old half-life (-8033*ln(1/2) = 5,568) If you want to use the modern value of 5730 then the multiplier is -8267, but this still doesn't correct for changes in atmospheric 14C levels over time.
... the conventional age was 539040. And the 5730 age would be 5550 +/- 40 which then needs to be calibrated to atmosphere levels Using the old values avoids the possibility of making this correction twice. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1292 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
so it looks like the best I can do is convert to %Aon ...
t = -8033 ln(Asn/Aon) -t/8033 = ln(Asn/Aon) e^-(t/8033) = e^ ln(Asn/Aon) = Asn/Aon For:
* compared to 1950 Aon standard So the second column should represent the actual 14C measured compared to the 1950 Aon standard. As you can see these amounts are getting quite small, especially when you compare this to the fraction of 14C to 12C at the 1950 standard.
... the conventional age was 539040. This would be 511.2‰ of the 1950 Aon standard Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : near 1 half lifeby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Coyote Member (Idle past 1993 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
From the bottom of Beta Analysic's report page:
Dates are reported as RCYBP (radiocarbon years before present, "present"=AD 1950). By international convention, the modern reference standard was 95% the 14C activity of the National Institute of Standards (NIST) Oxalic Acid (SRM 4990C) and calculated using the Libby 14C half-life (5568 years). Quoted errors represent 1 relative standard deviation statistics (68% probability) counting errors based on the combined measurements of the sample, background, and modern reference standards. Measured 13C/12C ratios (delta 13C) were calculated relative to the PDB-1 standard. I have never worried about the difference between the original half-life of 5568 and the modern one of 5730. As noted above, most reporting uses the old figure, and often there is a note saying to multiply by 1.03 if you want to convert to the new one. Here is a page describing Beta Analytic's report procedures and report form: Carbon-14 AMS Standard Deviation - Beta Analytic Have fun!Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1292 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I have never worried about the difference between the original half-life of 5568 and the modern one of 5730. As noted above, most reporting uses the old figure, and often there is a note saying to multiply by 1.03 if you want to convert to the new one. Yes, this is what the website in Message 1 says, and it is the convention adopted to ensure that dates aren't double corrected. Thanks.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Coyote Member (Idle past 1993 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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We have found there is far more error to be found in sample selection than in anything the laboratory can do.
Example: in our area, the oldest abalone shell has been dated at 5910 BP, while the oldest mussel shell is 9420 BP. The lndians started using mussels early, and abalones, which take a lot more work, much later. If you date only abalone shells you miss out on the earliest 3,500 years of our prehistory. Another example: some archaeologists are still using multiple pieces of shell in their dates. In any site that has gophers or squirrels, that almost certainly guarantees an error. We dated one site, using single pieces of shell, and found that they were completely randomized with respect to depth. But those single pieces, even though they had been moved around, still gave good dates. Including a large number of shell fragments in your sample will completely homogenize your date: if you have a two component site, Early and Late, that's a good way to get Middle Period dates even though the site wasn't occupied at that time. A really sneaky one: changing populations and patterns of exploitation over time resulted in early mussel shells generally being pretty thick and robust, but shells from later in time were thinner. This reflects over-exploitation of the mussel beds where the mussels aren't given a chance to grow up. For a while in trying to date one site we were selecting just the nice thick shells, and we kept getting Early Period dates. Only when we selected thin shells did we get more recent dates. Given all of these sources of bias, and a few others, we don't worry so much about what the laboratory does. We worry far more about what we and other archaeologists are doing!Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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