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Member (Idle past 1623 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: YETI nother explanation? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1623 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
British scientist 'solves' mystery of Himalayan yetis - BBC News
quote: Interesting ... Bears do tend to be solitary, and brown bears will frequently avoid humans (why carrying a noisemaker like a can with stones in that rattles as you walk when backpacking can keep them away). Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Admin Director Posts: 13103 From: EvC Forum Joined: |
Thread copied here from the YETI nother explanation? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1623 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
There have been several debates over the merits of various approaches to concepts where objective evidence has not been found:
Obviously, imho, the first approach would not have either found the fur sample nor tested it. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Obviously, imho, the first approach would not have either found the fur sample nor tested it. Were the samples found by yeti hunters? Was there some reason that a disbeliever in Yetis would not have tested samples from an unknown animal? Finally, does anyone think the animal is a yeti? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.Richard P. Feynman If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1623 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Were the samples found by yeti hunters? Immaterial to the question of whether the disbeliever would have looked\hunted for yeti or tested the evidence.
Was there some reason that a disbeliever in Yetis would not have tested samples from an unknown animal? The would likely have claimed that the hairs came from some other animal, such as the Himalayan Goral. From the article:
quote: Why would a disbeliever think the new evidence would be any different?
Finally, does anyone think the animal is a yeti? Again, the article states:
quote: I'd say that is a yes, wouldn't you? Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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he would likely have claimed that the hairs came from some other animal, such as the Himalayan Goral. Well, the test indicated that the animal was a bear which means it is not a Yeti. Yet the test was still conducted. A yeti is supposedly some kind of ape. Just being highly and rationally skeptical that there is some kind of snow ape living in the Himalayas does not make unreasonable to wonder just what kind of animal some sample does come from.
NoNukes writes: Were the samples found by yeti hunters? Immaterial to the question of whether the disbeliever would have looked\hunted for yeti or tested the evidence. If the sample was not found by someone hunting for yeti, that suggests that a belief in yeti's is not relevant to the finding of the sample. Further, there are plenty of reasons to test the fur of an unknown animal without wondering if it is a yeti. I So yeah. The question is relevant.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.Richard P. Feynman If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2617 From: massachusetts US Joined: |
RAZD counter points:
Again, the article states: quote:Research by a British scientist has concluded that the legendary Himalayan yeti may in fact be a sub-species of brown bear. He says the most likely explanation for the myth is that the animal is a hybrid of polar bears and brown bears. Prof Sykes told the BBC that there may be a real biological animal behind the yeti myth. I'd say that is a yes, wouldn't you?
Well, wouldn't that mean a redefinition of the commonly-held description of Yeti? If it's just a bear, well - nothing to see here. Zoologists specializing in large mammals would be very interested, true. But the numerous cottage industries built around the myth of the Yeti would be out of business. THERE IS MONEY INVOLVED HERE. (What's worse than an Abominable Snowman?)(Two Abominable Snowmen!) - xongsmith, 5.7d
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1623 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Well, the test indicated that the animal was a bear which means it is not a Yeti. Yet the test was still conducted. A previously unknown bear, and one for which there still is no physical specimen, all we know is that it is bear DNA. Curiously this is sufficient to define a new species, yes?
A yeti is supposedly some kind of ape. ... I would say no, it is supposedly a large white furred animal capable of standing and walking on two legs (footprint evidence). The "classification" as an ape is probably of western origin ... and wishful thinking? The Yeti | MythOrTruth.Com - Mythical Creatures, Beasts and Facts associated with them.
quote: ... Just being highly and rationally skeptical that there is some kind of snow ape living in the Himalayas does not make unreasonable to wonder just what kind of animal some sample does come from. In other words one can be open-minded about what the sample may be until the evidence is tested.
If the sample was not found by someone hunting for yeti, that suggests that a belief in yeti's is not relevant to the finding of the sample. ... It does not require that someone is actively "hunting for yeti" -- all that is needed is someone finding a sample and wondering if it may be from a yeti. The question then is would a disbeliever skeptic test a sample brought to them or dismiss it.
... Further, there are plenty of reasons to test the fur of an unknown animal without wondering if it is a yeti. ... Yes, ... if you are open-minded. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1623 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Well, wouldn't that mean a redefinition of the commonly-held description of Yeti ... Actually, I see it as a refinement of the definition, based on more complete information, just as we find in many other scientific discoveries.
... If it's just a bear, ... But not just a bear -- a new species of bear, perhaps one with some novel behavior patterns and possibly some archaic traits as well. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Yes, ... if you are open-minded. I suppose I should simply state my point. Being open minded means simply not denying that there might be some unknown animal out there. One can be open minded in that way and still absolutely deny that there is an abominable snow man. In short being complete closed minded in the way you described in the OP, being close-minded skepticism (or narrow minded skepticism): disbelief in the concept of Yeti's to the extent where you are going to deny that anything is a Yeti, won't interfere with your classifying some unknown animal as a bear. In fact it might make such a classification more likely.
t does not require that someone is actively "hunting for yeti" -- all that is needed is someone finding a sample and wondering if it may be from a yeti. The scientist need not have any idea or question about whether the animal was a yeti. All he needs to do is acknowledge that he does not know what it was. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.Richard P. Feynman If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2324 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Another aspect of this whole question involves probabilities.
In some cases there is simply no data upon which to estimate probabilities, but in many cases there is something, some amount of data, to work with. As we've been discussing Yeti or Sasquatch, I'll use that as a starting point. If there were a lot of Squatches out there, a lot of people would have seen them, and some people would have found footprints, and at least one person would have drug back some bones. My major professor all through graduate school was about the only academic who studied Squatch, and I saw a lot of the evidence he had gathered and accompanied him on trips to see amateur movies, etc. If you put all of this information together you can guess at a probability that there is a large primate (other than man) wandering around the forests of the western US. None of the movies I saw, including the famous Patterson film, are conclusive. The still photographs are even less so. The footprints are curious--something made them, those that aren't obvious fakes. And the handprint from NE Washington shows dermal ridges! On the other hand, where are the bones? While carnivore bones are very hard to find in the wild, not a single bone that could be attributed to Squatch has ever been found. All-in-all I'd put the probability that there is a population of Squatches running around the western US at a very low level. We could argue about the probability -- 5%, 1%, or whatever, but for the purposes of this discussion we can bring some information to bear on the problem. Our choices are not always limited to 1) close-minded skepticism, 2) open-minded skepticism, or 3) open-minded acceptance as suggested above. Sometimes we can bring some evidence to bear and estimate or guess at probabilities. (And yes, those puns were intended!)Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle |
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8635 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 7.3
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disbelief in the concept of Yeti's to the extent where you are going to deny that anything is a Yeti, won't interfere with your classifying some unknown animal as a bear Once they find this new Himalayan bear you know there is only classification for the thing ...
Ursus Arctos Yeti
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1623 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Once they find this new Himalayan bear you know there is only classification for the thing ...
Ursus Arctos Yeti Or Ursus Yeti if it is deemed a new species. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Diomedes Member Posts: 998 From: Central Florida, USA Joined:
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Or Ursus Yeti if it is deemed a new species. My vote is to name it after the Wampa from Star Wars:
The resemblance is astonishing. Perhaps Ursa Yeti Wampa as a compromise?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1623 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Getting back to this ...
... disbelief in the concept of Yeti's to the extent where you are going to deny that anything is a Yeti, won't interfere with your classifying some unknown animal as a bear. In fact it might make such a classification more likely. The question is not whether you accept the evidence for classifying "some unknown animal as a bear" but whether you will make the additional identification that it fits all the evidence that has been suggested for yetis. I am curious at the reluctance to agree -or potentially agree - with that possibility. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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