EvC Forum: Is needing or wanting to worship a God a human defect or benefit?

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Topic: Is needing or wanting to worship a God a human defect or benefit?

Greatest I am

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Message 1 of 27 (703090)
07-15-2013 11:03 AM

Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?

Gods have no needs or wants that man can assuage. Gods are said to be so high above us that for any God to have such a need would be like man craving the adoration of germs.

I see us as just as foolish as germs and the creatures shown in this clip as we act the same way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4a_uwyY_H4

I can see where at one time it would have been profitable to bend the knee to King/Gods as in the original archetype city states, as used in the original Eden myth written by the Jews, but not today.

That myth I think was written from the following reality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ9cvYB7Tes

Our present secular systems of governance have bested the Gods in the moral and legal senses and only the really right wing theists would want to live under the laws of the old barbaric Gods.

I am not an atheist and seek God to appease what I recognize as my spiritual side. But not to bend the knee or adore; just to improve any defect in my thinking; if I have one.

I know that there are way more followers out there than leaders but cannot fathom why someone would want to lower themselves to adore even a God unless it is strictly as a self-serving action that we hope God will recognize and reward.

That is hardly being good for goodness sake. God would know and send such hypocrites to hell. Which scriptures say is where the vast majority of us will end up regardless.

That means that you, even if you pray daily and hard, are likely going to hell along with most of those you know. In a sense, you should feel sorry for those few who make it to heaven as they must spend eternity watching their loved ones in purposeless torture. That would drive any moral person insane.

Gods have no needs or wants and has no rewards to give in exchange for what Gods have no need or want of.

The Godhead I know certainly disavows such a need or want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkT1-N0VqUc

Why then, if you are a believer, do you need or want to worship a God if not for the reward you think it will bring you?

Is your need to adore a God a defect or benefit?

Regards
DL

Edited by Admin, : Fix title: "worshiping" => "worship"

Replies to this message:
	Message 3 by Phat, posted 07-15-2013 12:50 PM	Greatest I am has replied
	Message 4 by Stile, posted 07-15-2013 1:21 PM	Greatest I am has replied
	Message 5 by NoNukes, posted 07-15-2013 6:31 PM	Greatest I am has replied
	Message 15 by ringo, posted 07-16-2013 2:36 PM	Greatest I am has replied
	Message 16 by Phat, posted 07-18-2013 11:00 PM	Greatest I am has replied

Admin

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Message 2 of 27 (703092)
07-15-2013 12:43 PM

Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum

Thread copied here from the Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

Phat

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Message 3 of 27 (703094)
07-15-2013 12:50 PM

Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-15-2013 11:03 AM

A God

quote:
Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?

both.

Allow me to frame the discussion, shall I?

the term "a god" is found in the NWT Bible from the Jehovah Witnesses.

NWT writes:

John 1:1. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."

Most of the Bibles I use have the term "the word was God."

Bible Hub writes:

New International Version (2011)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New Living Translation (2007)
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Standard Version (2001)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New American Standard Bible (1995)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (2009)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

International Standard Version (2012)
In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NET Bible (2006)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (2010)
In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God.

GOD'S WORD Translation (1995)
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

King James 2000 Bible (2003)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

American King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

American Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Darby Bible Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Revised Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Webster's Bible Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Weymouth New Testament
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

World English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

So to start with, do you mean "a god" or do you mean God?

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 07-15-2013 11:03 AM		Greatest I am has replied

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Stile

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Message 4 of 27 (703095)
07-15-2013 1:21 PM

Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-15-2013 11:03 AM

A whimsical defect

Greatest I am writes:

Is needing or wanting to worship a God a human defect or benefit?

I think this would depend on who you're talking to at the moment.

People don't all think or use their intelligence in the same way.
For some people, it's a defect to worship anything that doesn't exist.
For others, it's a benefit to worship something that is greater than anything they can imagine.

For others still it can be both or neither (people are not necessarily consistent).

Why then, if you are a believer, do you need or want to worship a God if not for the reward you think it will bring you?

I'm not a believer.
But I think it would be possible to worship a God out of thanks or gratitude instead of some desire for a reward.
How many do that? Probably not as many as you can find saying so... but more than none.

Is your need to adore a God a defect or benefit?

If "all things were equal", I would guess that believers would find worshipping God to be a benefit, and non-believers would find it to be a defect.
But in our world, things aren't generally "equal."

Because belief in God is so prevalent in the cultures throughout our world, I would guess that many worship just because of the social pressures of their environment. This would result in a bunch of believers who worship because they think they ought to... not because they understand their own thoughts and feelings on the matter. Therefore, we would be left with a bunch of "believers" where the worshipping is actually a defect and it irks them in ways they may not even think about.

In the same vein it is also likely true that some non-believers would actually benefit from worshipping God... but they don't because of the social pressures of their environment.

I just think that because "belief in God" is a larger approved-social-idea in most of the world, then there are probably more believers-that-should-not-worship than there are non-believers-that-should-worship. But this point doesn't really matter... everyone needs to figure out who they are and why they're here for themselves just the same.

Is your need to adore a God a defect or benefit?

For me, the need to adore a God is a defect.
As it takes my focus off important tasks and places it on things that don't make a difference that I can identify.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 07-15-2013 11:03 AM		Greatest I am has replied

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NoNukes

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Message 5 of 27 (703108)
07-15-2013 6:31 PM

Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-15-2013 11:03 AM

Gods have no needs or wants that a man can assuage

Perhaps your argument fails at this first premise. This statement seems to be false for most of the mythological gods I can think of off the top of my head. In fact when I encounter the rare exception with no earthly wants or cares, they stand out.

Your premise is certainly not true regarding Yahweh, if He is as depicted in the Bible.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
	Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 07-15-2013 11:03 AM		Greatest I am has replied

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	Message 9 by Greatest I am, posted 07-16-2013 12:43 PM		NoNukes has replied

jar

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Message 6 of 27 (703153)
07-15-2013 10:40 PM

as a Christian believer

Why then, if you are a believer, do you need or want to worship a God if not for the reward you think it will bring you?

I expect to receive nothing more than I would if I were not a believer.

Is your need to adore a God a defect or benefit?

Why would anyone know or care?

Yet I believe there is a God and that that God has charged me to behave in certain ways.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
	Message 11 by Greatest I am, posted 07-16-2013 12:49 PM		jar has replied

Greatest I am

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Posts: 1676

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Message 7 of 27 (703179)
07-16-2013 12:32 PM

Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
07-15-2013 12:50 PM

Re: A God

Thugpreacha

God.

Although I cannot see how God can be God and the Word can be God and they can be with each other.

Intelligent people know that God grew into being the Word and that the Trinity concept is garbage forced down Christianity's throat by Constantine when he bought the Church.

That groth process is explained well by bishop Spong.

Regards
DL

Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

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Greatest I am

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Message 8 of 27 (703182)
07-16-2013 12:39 PM

Reply to: Message 4 by Stile
07-15-2013 1:21 PM

Re: A whimsical defect

Stile

Thanks for this.

You are correct about the hypocrisy of believers who do not really believe.

This presentation also agrees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2VjdpVonY

Regards
DL

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Greatest I am

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Message 9 of 27 (703185)
07-16-2013 12:43 PM

Reply to: Message 5 by NoNukes
07-15-2013 6:31 PM

NoNukes

Yahweh is said to be Omni whatever you can think of. All powerful all knowing and on and on.

What does such a God have a need of me or you falling to our knees in adoration to assuage?

Remember that he was around for millennia without us to stroke his Omni ego.

Regards
DL

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	Message 5 by NoNukes, posted 07-15-2013 6:31 PM		NoNukes has replied

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	Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-16-2013 12:46 PM	Greatest I am has replied
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New Cat's Eye

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Message 10 of 27 (703186)
07-16-2013 12:46 PM

Reply to: Message 9 by Greatest I am
07-16-2013 12:43 PM

Yahweh is said to be Omni whatever you can think of. All powerful all knowing and on and on.

What does such a God have a need of me or you falling to our knees in adoration to assuage?

He pretty much tells us himself:

quote:
...I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God...

-Yahweh

This message is a reply to:
	Message 9 by Greatest I am, posted 07-16-2013 12:43 PM		Greatest I am has replied

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	Message 18 by Greatest I am, posted 07-21-2013 8:09 PM		New Cat's Eye has replied

Greatest I am

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Message 11 of 27 (703188)
07-16-2013 12:49 PM

Reply to: Message 6 by jar
07-15-2013 10:40 PM

Re: as a Christian believer

jar

Are you saying that those who do not believe still go to heaven?
Atheists as well?

If so, why do believers twist their minds into pretzels with all that fantasy, miracles and magic?

Also, why do they/you force themselves to embrace barbaric human sacrifice of Jesus and the notion that it is good to profit from the punishment of an innocent man instead of the guilty?

Regards
DL

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	Message 6 by jar, posted 07-15-2013 10:40 PM		jar has replied

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NoNukes

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Message 12 of 27 (703190)
07-16-2013 1:06 PM

Reply to: Message 9 by Greatest I am
07-16-2013 12:43 PM

What does such a God have a need of me or you falling to our knees in adoration to assuage?

Your question is without a point. Regardless of your personal intuition that an omnipotent, eternal, all-knowing being would not need puny humans, people who worship the God of the Bible accept that Yahweh does indeed desire the company of humans and does care what they do and what's in their hearts. The Bible, particularly the Old Testament attributes lots of fairly human-like qualities to God, and the God with those traits is the one Christians worship. They don't worship the unfeeling stone you picture God to be.

Remember that he was around for millennia without us to stroke his Omni ego.

Whatever. Apparently the billions of years that it takes to create a universe with evolved, intelligent people in it does not have the same effect on God that you anticipate it would have on you. No big deal. You aren't God.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : reword re: human qualities

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
	Message 9 by Greatest I am, posted 07-16-2013 12:43 PM		Greatest I am has replied

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NoNukes

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Message 13 of 27 (703192)
07-16-2013 1:11 PM

Reply to: Message 11 by Greatest I am
07-16-2013 12:49 PM

Re: as a Christian believer

If so, why do believers twist their minds into pretzels with all that fantasy, miracles and magic?

Not everyone believes the same thing jar believes.

and the notion good to profit from the punishment of an innocent man instead of the guilty?

This seems to be a false dichotomy. What profit comes from punishment of the guilty? How should that help me with my own issues?

I know that my inquiry does not address the point of your question, but I find the idea of salvation from punishing from the guilty quite odd.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
	Message 11 by Greatest I am, posted 07-16-2013 12:49 PM		Greatest I am has not replied

jar

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Posts: 34026

From: Texas!!

Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 14 of 27 (703193)
07-16-2013 1:13 PM

Reply to: Message 11 by Greatest I am
07-16-2013 12:49 PM

Re: as a Christian believer

Are you saying that those who do not believe still go to heaven?
Atheists as well?

Absolutely.

I expect there will be far more Buddhists, Atheists, Agnostic, Satanists, Hindus, Taoists, Animists, Jews, Muslims and followers of the Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Norse and Druid deities, Crow and Raven, Eagle and Coyote than Christians in heaven.

For most of the Christians that do happen to make it into heaven I expect there will some form of "Humanity 101" course that should help educate them about the real Gospel.

If so, why do believers twist their minds into pretzels with all that fantasy, miracles and magic?

Not sure exactly what you are asking there. These are the days of miracle and wonder, this is the long distance call...

Also, why do they/you force themselves to embrace barbaric human sacrifice of Jesus and the notion that it is good to profit from the punishment of an innocent man instead of the guilty?

That's a great question. Such a believe makes that God look pretty venial and stupid, doesn't it?

Fortunately I don't embrace human sacrifice or the notion that it is good to profit from punishing the innocent rather than the guilty.

Not sure if it would be on topic here and I've certainly covered my beliefs here at EvC but if you want, I'd be happy to try to explain my position on the sacrifice yet again.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
	Message 11 by Greatest I am, posted 07-16-2013 12:49 PM		Greatest I am has replied

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ringo

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Message 15 of 27 (703209)
07-16-2013 2:36 PM

Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
07-15-2013 11:03 AM

Greatest I am writes:

Is needing or wanting to worshiping a God a human defect or benefit?

Why do women like "bad boys"?

There's an evolutionary advantage in having a partner who's an independent thinker, a leader instead of a follower. He has the potential to be a better provider, a better protector.

On the other hand, he also has the potential to abandon you.

Sometimes innovation is better. Sometimes stability is better.

So gods, like boyfriends, have their good points and their bad points - and sometimes they're the same points.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 07-15-2013 11:03 AM		Greatest I am has replied

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