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Author Topic:   Rights of Nature?
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 1 of 147 (702390)
07-05-2013 12:07 PM


quote:
It seems strange, this notion that nature has rights as if it were a person. But in the United States it seems perfectly normal that big companies have human rights.
zcommunications.org - zcommunications Resources and Information.
As a nature/earth lover, I was happy to hear that some countries have adopted the 'rights of nature' to their laws (see links below).
Now I imagine many 'people' would be against ANY 'liberal' impediment to cannibalize or profit the raping of the earth or exploiting/oppressing native peoples. They would cry 'it would be bad for the economy,' all the while they attend their dying children in the hospital from poisonous strip mining runoffs or escaping toxic gruel from fracking. I would bet the good ol' usa (a place where the necessary pursuits of maximum profits over ANYthing else is paramount or where the legality of corporate citizenship is considered sacrosanct) would be the last place such laws protecting the environment would be installed. As a matter of fact, I might bet Herr Obama, ever champion of the 1%ers, is working on criminalizing and make it treasonous for even suggesting to organize 'nature laws.'
But could these Nature Rights laws be a last chance solution before the earth is permanently and irreparably trashed? Or will the voices against global warming and fracking continue to scream loudly in vain, well after we left the cliff and hit the bottom in our final doom? As I witnessed too many times, often from THIS website, most people will cling to their harmful idealisms no matter how destructive to their own best interests, . . . till death.
Besides the probable negative impact on the super-wealthy, is there any other negative effects from instituting 'nature rights' that I might be unaware?
quote:
The first successful case of the Rights of Nature implementation in Ecuador
The case was presented before the Provincial Court of Justice of Loja on March 30, 2011 with granting a Constitutional injunction in favor of nature, specifically the Vilcabamba River, against the Provincial Government of Loja.
The first successful case of the Rights of Nature implementation in Ecuador - Global Alliance for the Rights of Nature (GARN)
quote:
Bolivia and Ecuador Grant Equal Rights to Nature: Is Wild Law a Climate Solution?
The concept of a wild law, which grants equal rights to nature, is based on the idea that humans do not have an explicit right to destroy our natural environment. Under wild law, natural ecosystems’ rights supersede the interests of any one species (including humans).
http://thinkprogress.org/...nature-wild-law-climate-solution
quote:
Message to Bolivia: Nature’s Rights Are Also Human Rights
Bolivia has just celebrated ten years of a popular victory in the water war, when the people of Cochabamba were able to defeat an all-powerful Californian company, owner of the water by the grace of a government which said it was Bolivian and was very generous to those from afar.
zcommunications.org - zcommunications Resources and Information.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 07-05-2013 12:23 PM dronestar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 147 (702392)
07-05-2013 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by dronestar
07-05-2013 12:07 PM


Mother Nature?
I am all for the idea of preserving nature above and beyond the corporate interests of the world. My only issue, being the fundie that I am, is that we don't start worshiping it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dronestar, posted 07-05-2013 12:07 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Straggler, posted 07-05-2013 12:32 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 4 by dronestar, posted 07-05-2013 12:34 PM Phat has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 3 of 147 (702394)
07-05-2013 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
07-05-2013 12:23 PM


Re: Mother Nature?
If worshipping nature (AKA mother Earth) led to desireable outcomes would you object to others following that path.....?

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 4 of 147 (702396)
07-05-2013 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
07-05-2013 12:23 PM


Re: Mother Nature?
If it was merely a binary choice, I would think worshiping nature would be better than attacking nature.
But in your case, wouldn't worshiping nature, a product of god's handiwork, just be praising god's goodness?
I am visiting Yosemite this year. Although I am not at all religious, in natural places of particular beauty, even I become 'spiritual.' If there was a god, I think he would be pleased by that.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 07-05-2013 12:54 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 7 by ringo, posted 07-05-2013 1:46 PM dronestar has replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 5 of 147 (702398)
07-05-2013 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by dronestar
07-05-2013 12:34 PM


Re: Mother Nature?
Dronestar writes:
If it was merely a binary choice, I would think worshiping nature would be better than attacking nature.
Agreed with this fully! I would definitely agree with some sort of Rights of Nature. Although I do believe that we should utilize the products of nature, we should do everything in our power to do so in a sustainable way. A great example of this is the way we work with the Forest in some regions. By choosing which trees to cut and when, we have actually managed to benefit the ecosystem by allowing for better growth in the remaining trees.
Selection Cutting
Dronestar writes:
But in your case, wouldn't worshiping nature, a product of god's handiwork, just be praising god's goodness?
I am visiting Yosemite this year. Although I am not at all religious, in natural places of particular beauty, even I become 'spiritual.' If there was a god, I think he would be pleased by that.
I do agree that one could worship a God through worshipping his handiwork, so I am not sure why Phat would think differently, he will have to explain that.
However, you are absolutely right on the wonder and awe that we are filled with upon the sight of something beautiful in nature! I spend a lot of time up in the Ponderosa Pine forests of Northern AZ and I feel a calm sense of peace everytime I am there. There is definitely a spiritual quality to the entire experience. I remember going to Yellowstone when I was a kid and seeing all the diversity of life, the amazing expanses of trees; it was simply awe-inspiring. Enough so, that I still remember all the details of that trip twenty years later!
Another thing to consider is that this awe, or spiritual feeling isn't only coming from being in nature. If you listen to Neil DeGrasse Tyson discuss viewing the Cosmos, you can tell that for him that is a spiritual experience. Nature provides us many things to look upon in wonder and awe, we just need to take the time to do so.
But, to end this on topic...Yes, I would vote for Nature's Rights to a certain extent.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by dronestar, posted 07-05-2013 12:34 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 6 of 147 (702399)
07-05-2013 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
07-05-2013 12:54 PM


Re: Mother Nature?
Ponderosa Pine forests of Northern AZ: Never heard of it. I did a quick google, and in words Phat might use, it looks, . . . heavenly. There are so many great places to visit in the western usa, thanks for another possibility. Maybe in the future, I should create another thread for western usa travel ideas.
tempe writes:
Yes, I would vote for Nature's Rights to a certain extent.
If your concern of the law that it includes sustainable harvesting, I could agree. If you are a musical instrument player, many ethical companies pledge using sustainable hardwoods. E.g., Taylor guitars.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 7 of 147 (702402)
07-05-2013 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by dronestar
07-05-2013 12:34 PM


Re: Mother Nature?
dronester writes:
If it was merely a binary choice, I would think worshiping nature would be better than attacking nature.
I don't believe in personifiying nature in either direction. I believe in exploiting nature to the fullest. Of course, that means in a sustainable way, so that future generations can continue to exploit it in a sustainable way (what Phat might understand as "good stewardship).
Recognising the "rights of nature" would put its needs in competition with our own needs. Ultimately, it would only motivate us to find clever new ways to exploit those "rights" while convincing ourselves that we weren't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by dronestar, posted 07-05-2013 12:34 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by dronestar, posted 07-05-2013 2:52 PM ringo has replied
 Message 11 by Jon, posted 07-05-2013 6:27 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 8 of 147 (702405)
07-05-2013 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
07-05-2013 1:46 PM


Re: Mother Nature?
RingO writes:
I believe in exploiting nature to the fullest. Of course, that means in a sustainable way
Well, I haven't seen anybody in this thread argue against a sustainable system, . . . yet. (The spirit of my thread IS against strip mining, fracking, oil production, etc.. There are no sustainable systems with these items, agreed?)
RingO writes:
Ultimately, it would only motivate us to find clever new ways to exploit those "rights" while convincing ourselves that we weren't.
Ahhh, . . . but with nature's new rights, wouldn't it also find clever new ways to exploit her right's while convincing itself that it weren't?
Unless you have a better solution, you are sounding like a defeatist. So, . . . what have you got?

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 Message 7 by ringo, posted 07-05-2013 1:46 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 07-05-2013 4:06 PM dronestar has not replied
 Message 12 by AZPaul3, posted 07-05-2013 6:28 PM dronestar has not replied
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 07-07-2013 3:42 PM dronestar has not replied
 Message 18 by roxrkool, posted 07-08-2013 12:58 AM dronestar has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 9 of 147 (702408)
07-05-2013 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by dronestar
07-05-2013 2:52 PM


Re: Mother Nature?
Well, I haven't seen anybody in this thread argue against a sustainable system, . . . yet. (The spirit of my thread IS against strip mining, fracking, oil production, etc.. There are no sustainable systems with these items, agreed?)
I think Nature's rights is a fiction, and what is really being defended is the interest humans have in enjoying/utilizing nature. Does anyone think there is any respect for a right of Nature to keep some amount of petroleum in the ground? I certainly don't.
With respect to petroleum, oil mining is not self sustaining, but that lack affects humans not Nature. Does anyone respect the right of the earth to maintain any specific temperature, amount of underground oil, amount of frozen water, or sea level or is it the problems those cause for humans that ought to be respected.
Maybe some people would recognize the rights of some animals to a survivable habitat, but rights of nature? Pure fiction.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 10 of 147 (702417)
07-05-2013 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by NoNukes
07-05-2013 4:06 PM


Re: Mother Nature?
Agreed. It's like saying that the economy has a right to a low level of inflation. Why would one say that? It's not like the economy would feel pain if there was an inflationary spiral, we would.

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 147 (702420)
07-05-2013 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ringo
07-05-2013 1:46 PM


Re: Mother Nature?
I believe in exploiting nature to the fullest. Of course, that means in a sustainable way ...
... and in different forms.

Love your enemies!

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 12 of 147 (702421)
07-05-2013 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by dronestar
07-05-2013 2:52 PM


Re: Mother Nature?
Rights for nature?
Does anyone really think nature cares?
We cannot rape nature, we can only use the stuff.
We can use the stuff in a way to sustain our species or we can use the stuff in a way that will eventualy make us extinct. Ol' Mother Nature could care less.
What ever poisons we produce, whatever noxious putrid remains we leave behind will become food for something which will be fed upon by something else and nature will just ... go on.
The only real "rights" nature has is the right to outlast us and the right to not give a fuck once we're gone both of which will be exercised in due time.

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 147 (702424)
07-05-2013 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by NoNukes
07-05-2013 4:06 PM


Re: Mother Nature?
Does anyone respect the right of the earth to maintain any specific temperature, amount of underground oil, amount of frozen water, or sea level or is it the problems those cause for humans that ought to be respected.
Ultimately correct.
A world with no polar bears is not no world at all. Nature will continue as it always has, and some other critter will take the polar bears' place.
The issue is whether we can survive in a world with no polar bears. Can we survive rising seas? Can we survive increasing desertification? Can we survive hotter summers? Can we survive more tornadoes? More hurricanes?
Who loses when humans and the elements go to war?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 14 of 147 (702425)
07-05-2013 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by NoNukes
07-05-2013 4:06 PM


Re: Mother Nature?
NoNukes writes:
Does anyone think there is any respect for a right of Nature to keep some amount of petroleum in the ground?
'Rights" is a pretty odd word to apply to nature, I agree. Nature generally seems to look after itself by not particularly caring what happens to it - it always wins in the end.
I doubt a lion respects the rights of a wildebeest much, but nature only allows a given amount of lions and wildebeest to co-exist - if lions ever get the upper hand, their food supply disappears.
I doubt nature minds one way or the other wether mankind pollutes itself out of existence - it seems to think that rats and micro-organisms are at least as cool as apes and that humans are as dispensable as dinosaurs.
If I was nature I'd be rubbing my hands together in anticipation of what will spring up after the next apocalypse - manmade or otherwise.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 15 of 147 (702428)
07-05-2013 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by NoNukes
07-05-2013 4:06 PM


Re: Mother Nature?
OK you said it nicer than I did. We'll go with yours.

This message is a reply to:
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