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Author Topic:   Do creationists try to find and study fossils?
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 1 of 182 (697791)
04-29-2013 6:42 AM


I would like to start a discussion topic on a few sentences a poster called Just being real wrote in Message 101.
To me the whole post was just one big Gish Gallop, with virtually everything stated there being untrue. I’ll start with the first few sentences.
Just being real writes:
Here are some interesting facts about human fossils. Did you know that the hominid fossils are so guarded that they are virtually beyond all access by the very scientists who study human evolution and bring us most of the literature about it?
My experience is the opposite. For example, I can look at the Bernard Price Institute (BPI) of the University of the Witwatersrand (Wits for short).
In case a legitimate researcher or researchers ever wanted to study a fossil in the Wits collection, all they have to do would be to fill out a questionnaire on- line. Just a few steps to it. The researchers are asked to fill in their names, the normal institutional address, the date they want to start and expect to finish the studies on the fossil, the purpose of the work/studies (which degree, for example). Apart from that, they have to undertake to abide by the rules all set out in the website and by the University (e.g. do not damage the fossil in any way). Then all they have to do is to turn up at Wits to start the study on the date specified by the BPI.
One example. To study the first original Australopithecus sediba fossil at BPI, a legitimate researcher can fill out the application form, wait for a while as lots of people have applied to study the original fossil, themselves, then start their own study of the original at Wits. The researcher will have to wait in line behind hundreds of specialists.
Here the online application form to study the fossil:
http://www.wits.ac.za/.../bpi/fossils_/6587/application.html
The alternative for creationists would be to go and find your own Australopithecus sediba fossil. That’s hard work. Would they even know where to look for it?
Creationists, when you find your own fossils, you’re welcome to do to it whatever you want to. All you have to do is to:
1. Report that you found a fossil.
2. You’re not allowed to export the fossil without permission.
You can even go and destroy the fossil if you wanted to. Just don’t think that other people will believe whatever you write when you claim to have found one without providing the empirical, verifiable evidence for it.
My argument is that Just being real did not tell the truth about the fact that those fossils are beyond all access by the very the scientists who publish paleontological articles about hominid fossils.
My questions are:
1. Why do some creationists claim that fossils are ‘guarded that they are virtually beyond all access by the very scientists who study human evolution and bring us most of the literature about it’?
2. Why don’t modern creationists ever find their own fossils? Accompanying that is: When was the last time an anti-evolutionist found a legitimate new fossil?
3. Do modern creationists do any any reseach on legitamate newly discovered fossils, they discovered themselves, at all?
I’m not too sure on the topic to place this, but the Biological Evolution Forum seems appropriate.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : Changed the sentence as recommended for promotion as well as others
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 04-29-2013 10:17 AM Pressie has replied
 Message 9 by Coragyps, posted 04-30-2013 12:26 PM Pressie has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 13081
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 2 of 182 (697792)
04-29-2013 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Pressie
04-29-2013 6:42 AM


Could you look into this a bit more? There are two things that concern me.
One is that while the BPI collections might be available for study, I would frankly be surprised if it were available for study by anyone. For instance, the application asks about the nature of the proposed study and whether it is for higher degree or publication purposes. I would expect that applications from laypeople would be routinely dismissed.
The other concern is that my admittedly informal understanding is that hominid fossils, particularly skulls, are considered invaluable, and that obtaining access is very difficult.
There's another way to look at JBR's accusations. It is far easier to make stuff up than to prove it isn't true. Say you're in a conversation with a group of other people at some get together and someone asks, "Say, I heard you got arrested, what was that about?" You didn't get arrested, of course, and you deny it, laugh it off, but damage *has* been done. That's why people like JBR say these things, because they work, and there's just no sense dignifying most of it with a response.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Pressie, posted 04-29-2013 6:42 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Pressie, posted 04-29-2013 2:39 PM Admin has replied
 Message 4 by Pressie, posted 04-29-2013 2:51 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 3 of 182 (697793)
04-29-2013 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
04-29-2013 10:17 AM


I did look into into it a bit more.
Say, for example, for a Mechanical Engineer asking to have a look at those original fossils would be far more diificult than a paleontologist trying to have a look, studying them and publish their findings.
After all, would that engineer know more about fossils than a vertebrate paleontologist? Would an engineer even know what a foramen magnum is supposed to look like when determining whether an organism walked on all fours or not?
And, yes, humanid fossils are invaluable; that's why people so many paleontogists line up to study those that have been found.
My concern is that lay persons think that they know it all without ever seeing a fossil, ever. Some people don't know that paleontologists actually study fossils for many. many years.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 04-29-2013 10:17 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Admin, posted 04-29-2013 3:40 PM Pressie has replied

Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 4 of 182 (697794)
04-29-2013 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
04-29-2013 10:17 AM


Does JBR dignify a response?
Admin
I agree that JBR does not really dignify a response. He (or she) is just another one who saw a Dr Dino video and thinks that they know everything about all the sciences.
On the other side, lots of people do read this forum. If there's no response, they will think that their untruths prevail. And they will repeat it for ever and ever.

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Admin
Director
Posts: 13081
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 5 of 182 (697795)
04-29-2013 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Pressie
04-29-2013 2:39 PM


I guess my main concern is this sentence:
Pressie writes:
In case you ever wanted to study a fossil in the Wits collection, all you have to do to study the original fossils would be to fill out a questionnaire on- line.
I think I misinterpreted you as saying that JBR or anyone could study the fossils if he wanted to, which I don't think is true. If you can change that sentence to make it clear that the process is for legitimate researchers then I'll promote this.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Pressie, posted 04-29-2013 2:39 PM Pressie has replied

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 Message 6 by Pressie, posted 04-30-2013 12:09 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 6 of 182 (697796)
04-30-2013 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Admin
04-29-2013 3:40 PM


Thanks Admin
I changed that sentence as well as a few other sentences.

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 Message 5 by Admin, posted 04-29-2013 3:40 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 13081
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 7 of 182 (697798)
04-30-2013 8:47 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Do creationists try to find and study fossils? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 182 (697815)
04-30-2013 10:53 AM


Info on fossil collecting on gov't land
http://www.blm.gov/...tology/Paleontological_Permitting.html
A paleontologist must have a valid paleontological resource use permit before collecting or disturbing fossil resources on BLM-administered lands. Casual collecting (also called hobby collecting) of certain common invertebrate and plant fossils on BLM-administered lands is allowable without a permit. For more information about casual collecting, click here.
What qualifications must I have in order to receive a permit?
According to BLM policy handbook 8270-1 (chapter IV), the applicant must have received formal education and professional instruction in a field of paleontology equivalent to a Graduate Degree; and
must demonstrate past experience in collecting, analyzing, and reporting paleontological data, similar to the type and scope of work proposed in the application.
must demonstrate past experience in planning, equipping, staffing, organizing, and supervising crews performing work that is proposed in the application.
must demonstrate experience in carrying out paleontological projects to completion as evidenced by theses, research reports, scientific papers and similar documents.
must provide a valid and current repository agreement with a Federally approved museum repository.
In addition to being qualified, am I eligible to receive a permit from the BLM?
On lands administered by BLM Utah, in order to be eligible for a paleontological resource use permit the applicant must not:
engage in the business of buying, selling, or trading paleontological resources of a similar type that would be authorized by the permit.
have been convicted of a civil or criminal charge, or have charges pending, that are relevant to work that would be authorized by the permit.
Do I need a permit for researching and/or collecting invertebrate or plant fossils?
Casual collecting is allowed under BLM policy and is further authorized by the Paleontological Resources Preservation Act (PRPA).
Casual collecting in Section 6301(1) of PRPA means "the collecting of a reasonable amount of common invertebrate and plant paleontological resources for non-commercial personal use, either by surface collection or the use of non-powered hand tools resulting in only negligible disturbance to the Earth's surface and other resources."
Research, however, is different than casual collecting. If you plan to do research on invertebrate and/or plant fossils you will need a permit. A permit will lend legitimacy to your work, allow you to exceed normal collection quotas, and allow the BLM to manage important paleontological resources using scientific principles and expertise. If the Bureau does not know where you are researching and what you're collecting it will not be able to preserve and protect the resource that scientists need to research. Please contact the BLM for more information.
So being a petroleum geologist for almost my entire adult life (36 years of expierence) I maybe able to get a survey/research permit based upon my work at USGS back in the 70's. No way they will give me an excavation permit. I would have to get that through one of the four Paleontologists I know and have worked with on occasion if they would be willing to accept legal responsibility for my actions in the field.
On private land you can do whatever with the land owners permission. About 90% of the land in Sublette County, Wy where I live is owned by the BLM or NFS.
Causal collecting is allowed, basically picking up fossils on the ground, or not disturbing more than 1 sq. meter of ground. Don't get caught with 100's of fossils and a large area dug up.
So it's going to be rather hard for an unqualified person to do origional research. However anyone can start an oil company, I did, and try and make themselves rich using Flood Geology. LOL
Edited by petrophysics1, : tried to link to pic & it didn't work

Replies to this message:
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 Message 12 by Pressie, posted 05-02-2013 12:41 AM petrophysics1 has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 812 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 9 of 182 (697822)
04-30-2013 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Pressie
04-29-2013 6:42 AM


There was - no longer, though, I think - a Creation Museum in Crosbyton, Texas that had a selection of fossils. The had dinosaur, mammoth - the usual suspects - and a human femur that was about 120 cm long. Perfectly proportioned just like your femur or mine, but from back when there were "giants in the earth."
At least one grade school class from here went there on a field trip burning taxpayer-purchased gasoline in a taxpayer-purchased school-bus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Pressie, posted 04-29-2013 6:42 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


(3)
Message 10 of 182 (697830)
04-30-2013 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by petrophysics1
04-30-2013 10:53 AM


Re: Info on fossil collecting on gov't land
So it's going to be rather hard for an unqualified person to do origional research.
Creationists claim that scientists are leaving old earth geology and evolution in droves, so surely their ranks have swelled with paleontologists who have the experience and education to easily acquire a dig permit. If they can build a 25 million dollar Creation Museum, and are working on an even larger Ark park, then surely they can divert a few of those dollars to fund a few of those hundreds of creationist paleontologists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by petrophysics1, posted 04-30-2013 10:53 AM petrophysics1 has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 182 (697856)
05-01-2013 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Coragyps
04-30-2013 12:26 PM


... Creation Museum in Crosbyton, Texas
That's surely the place described here:
Mt. Blanco Fossil Museum – Digging up the facts of God's Creation: One fossil at a time

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 12 of 182 (697946)
05-02-2013 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by petrophysics1
04-30-2013 10:53 AM


Re: Info on fossil collecting on gov't land
Thanks for that.
In my country fossils and fossil sites are regarded as part of the National Estate.
http://www.palaeontologicalsociety.co.za/...ogy-and-law.html
quote:
Permits to collect fossils are normally issued only to professionally qualified palaeontologists working at museums, universities or research institutions. In some cases in the past individuals, collecting on behalf of museums, have been also given permits. All fossils that are collected in terms of a permit are curated by institutions on behalf of the nation. The fossils may not be sold or given away. Even a farmer who owns land on which fossils occur must have a permit to remove them from their original position and may not sell or give them to anyone other than a museum or research institution.
Doing geological work on farms in all over the Karoo, I've seen many farm houses with formidable collections of fossils. Wonder to what extent those farmers actually abide by the law.
Not many people know about the following part:
quote:
The Act states that no person may destroy, damage, alter, deface, disturb, excavate, remove from its original position, collect or own, trade in or sell, export or attempt to export from South Africa, any fossil without a permit from the South African Heritage Resources Agency (SAHRA).
He-he-he, I've across a farmer with beautiful mammal-like reptiles fossils in his house, but still strongly believed in a 6000 year old earth and that evolution was directly sent to us by the devil, in the guise of Darwin. Figure that.
Luckily we don't find too many of them in our country anymore.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : Changed sentence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by petrophysics1, posted 04-30-2013 10:53 AM petrophysics1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 13 of 182 (697947)
05-02-2013 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Pressie
05-02-2013 12:41 AM


Re: Info on fossil collecting on gov't land
He-he-he, I've across a farmer with beautiful mammal-like reptiles fossils in his house, but still strongly believe in a 6000 year old earth and that evolution was directly sent to us by the devil, in the guise of Darwin. Figure that.
Why is this a problem? Surely you know the fossils are the remains of creatures killed in the worldwide Flood?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Pressie, posted 05-02-2013 12:41 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Pressie, posted 05-02-2013 1:31 AM Faith has replied
 Message 61 by Percy, posted 05-03-2013 11:32 AM Faith has not replied

Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 14 of 182 (697950)
05-02-2013 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
05-02-2013 12:46 AM


Re: Info on fossil collecting on gov't land
What's wrong with it?
I'm not going to air my personal opinion about people with those believes here. Needless to say, my opinion on them is not very high. But you do know that, don't you?
No sign of a flood covering the area which is now covered by the Karoo Supergroup a few thousand years ago. Those formations which those fossils are found don't show any sign of a global flood. And guess what, the lower formations contain fossils of reptiles, but as one goes higher and higher in the stratigraphy, the more and more mammal features are displayed by those fossils.
A nice article to explain it to you can be found here at
http://cambrian.tripod.com/Reptile-Mammal
quote:
The following is not a direct lineage, but representatives of successful, related groups which exhibit a gradual aquisition of mammalian characters during the Permian-Triassic.
Faith, have you ever in your life even been to the Karoo? Ever done any geology on it?
Do you think that those thousands of geologists who actually have studied those rocks intensively and publishing their studies for all to see are all wrong, only you are right?
Which YEC has ever found, studied and published a fossil from the Karoo?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 12:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 05-02-2013 1:48 AM Pressie has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1522 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 15 of 182 (697951)
05-02-2013 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Pressie
05-02-2013 1:31 AM


Re: Info on fossil collecting on gov't land
Faith, have you ever in your life even been to the Karoo? Ever done any geology on it?
Seen some pictures and diagrams. It's quite an impressive collection of fossils.
The "evidence" that there was never a worldwide Flood is really pretty silly.
Evidence FOR the Flood is everywhere -- in the mere existence of the strata, and in the prodigious numbers of fossils themselves among other things.
Let me guess that the increase in mammalian features is subject to interpretation.
Do you think that those thousands of geologists who actually have studied those rocks intensively and publishing their studies for all to see are all wrong, only you are right?
I do think they are all wrong about the time factor and their basic assumptions about the relation of the fossils to each other, yes, of course.
But ONLY I? Hardly, despite the assaults on the Bible there do remain millions who take it seriously. I'm in good company.
Which YEC has ever found, studied and published a fossil from the Karoo?
I'm not sure why YECs don't get more involved in that aspect of the science, perhaps partly because it's been taken over by the OE people, partly because YECs don't have a huge need to study fossils since we know they are the result of the Flood? Still, I know many enjoy collecting them, and we could learn from them about the forms of life that lived before the Flood, perhaps some things about the climate of the time and so on. Perhaps mostly it's because YEC science is still too new to have an organized approach beyond simply trying to answer the OE claims.
=====================================
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Pressie, posted 05-02-2013 2:15 AM Faith has replied
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