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Author Topic:   If a mythical creature such as a griffin existed.....
CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 3614 days)
Posts: 196
From: Honduras
Joined: 02-11-2013


Message 1 of 52 (690511)
02-13-2013 9:09 PM


Would you think that it would refute the theory of evolution. I would argue that it would. For example, there not known any animals with wings that are separated from their paws or arms. There are now way this animal could had evolve since those limbs would come from nowhere. Well those are basically my points. What do you think? Do you think it would?
Edited by CoolBeans, : No reason given.

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Adminnemooseus
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Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 52 (690513)
02-13-2013 10:33 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the If a mythical creature such as a griffin existed..... thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Minnemooseus
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Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
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Message 3 of 52 (690515)
02-13-2013 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CoolBeans
02-13-2013 9:09 PM


It would be an evolutionary outlier
I think the support for evolution of everything else would still stand. What the Griffin would be, is some sort of bizarre outlier. A where in the hell did this thing come from thing.
It’s the same situation as if a creature from another planet were somehow transplanted to the Earth. It also would be an oddity of foreign genetic origin.
Moose

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 4 of 52 (690518)
02-13-2013 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Minnemooseus
02-13-2013 10:35 PM


Re: It would be an evolutionary outlier
Well, the existence of something so flagrantly not-evolved would lead us to question the evolution of things which are less flagrant. If not-evolution was producing species, there's no reason to suppose that it would always be kind enough to do so in ways that were obvious to us. So I think that not only would we consider the griffin to be not-evolved, but it would cast a general shadow of doubt over the evolution of other species.

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AZPaul3
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Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 5 of 52 (690529)
02-14-2013 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CoolBeans
02-13-2013 9:09 PM


There are now way this animal could had evolve since those limbs would come from nowhere.
On this planet, sure, but we are not the only life in the galaxy.
Rather than a challenge to evolution, the discovery of such a thing would be a challenge to the view we are not being visited by aliens. We would know that some alien species was here and they brought the pet Knossos.

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Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 6 of 52 (690531)
02-14-2013 12:48 AM


Semen Sample Required...
I say we start with a DNA test and see what it gives us.

Love your enemies!

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 7 of 52 (690537)
02-14-2013 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by AZPaul3
02-14-2013 12:24 AM


Rather than a challenge to evolution, the discovery of such a thing would be a challenge to the view we are not being visited by aliens. We would know that some alien species was here and they brought the pet Knossos.
But again, where does it stop? If aliens brought along something which we could easily identify as an anomaly, such as a creature with the head of an eagle and the body of a lion, then they might also have brought along something which we couldn't recognize as an anomaly, such as something with the head of a lion and the body of a lion, i.e. a lion. We'd have to start wondering what, if anything, was the product of evolution and what was misplaced alien pets.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 8 of 52 (690545)
02-14-2013 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dr Adequate
02-14-2013 1:41 AM


Except lions fit nicely within the nested hierarchy that we know for certain is a hallmark of evolution. We have no reason to suggest the lion is not a product of evolution. Knossos, however, is clearly outside the body plans we find on this planet and is outside the nested hierarchy.
I am assuming from the OP that the griffin in question just showed up one day, like last Tuesday, all by its lonesome and requires explanation, not that it has been here all along.
If the intent of the OP is that such an anomaly has been with us for quite some time, like millions of years, with ancestors, siblings and everything else that comes with being a product of this planet, then we would have a fossil record, a history of the body plan and a segment of the griffin nested hierarchy that would fit within the rest of the tree of life on this planet which would mean the griffin was not an anomaly outside evolution.
Minus a whole bunch of details about how, where, when this griffin was discovered to exist we are open to all kinds of fun speculations.
Edited by AZPaul3, : usual

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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 9 of 52 (690550)
02-14-2013 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CoolBeans
02-13-2013 9:09 PM


Are we talking a full-on mythical griffin guarding treasure of incredible worth and whose feathers can magically cure blindness?
If one of those suddenly turned up it would cast doubt on a lot of things.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 10 of 52 (690556)
02-14-2013 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Straggler
02-14-2013 9:03 AM


I took the OP as strictly phenotype. But since you mentioned it, yeah, the magic stuff would be cause for concern until we get to study the feathers in the lab, find the proteins or whatever cures some types of blindness, bottle it, market it, and make a fortune.
As far as the treasure guarding ... an RPG should take care of that. And then we can collect a whole slue of feathers to study after taking the treasure to the pawn shop.

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CoolBeans
Member (Idle past 3614 days)
Posts: 196
From: Honduras
Joined: 02-11-2013


Message 11 of 52 (690559)
02-14-2013 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by AZPaul3
02-14-2013 9:49 AM


It would be a pain in the ass for phylogenetics

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 12 of 52 (690560)
02-14-2013 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by AZPaul3
02-14-2013 8:04 AM


Except lions fit nicely within the nested hierarchy that we know for certain is a hallmark of evolution.
Well, they look like they do.
We have no reason to suggest the lion is not a product of evolution.
After the griffin, we'd have a reason to suggest that anything might not be.

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 13 of 52 (690562)
02-14-2013 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CoolBeans
02-13-2013 9:09 PM


It depends on how griffin-like the creature is. If you're talking about an animal that is clearly a lion/eagle collage, then, yeah, evolution is an unlikely explanation for it.
But, if you just mean an animal with wings in addition to a normal complement of legs, that might be explainable by evolution, but it depends on the details of the system. For example, arthropods usually have one pair of appendages per body segment, but insects have wings in addition to legs on two of their body segments.
However, either way it goes, there is still good evidence that evolution explains at least some of the diversity of life, so discovering something that can't be explained by evolution would only indicate that we need more mechanisms, not that our current mechanisms need to be abandoned wholesale.
But, like Dr Adequate said, it would open the door to debates about whether each individual animal is best explained by evolution or by whatever mechanism explains the griffin.

-Blue Jay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 14 of 52 (690565)
02-14-2013 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by CoolBeans
02-14-2013 10:10 AM


It would be a pain in the ass for phylogenetics
If little Knossos just appeared one day in, say, Central Park then trying to fit the critter into our existing scheme in evolution would be much more than a mere pain in the ass. The conclusion would most probably come down to "it don't fit so it ain't from here."
But if a population of griffins with evidence of multiple generations were found living successfully in, say, an isolated inaccessible wheat field in the middle of Kansas, then we might say our ideas of evolution were not complete, though we could not say they were entirely rejected. We would have to find a place, a way, some logical reason for the felidea and accipitridae to have crossed or find some evidence of evolutionary convergence.
If griffins were from here then there would have to be a viable evolutionary explanation even if that means modifying some of our ideas within the umbrella of present evolution.
If not ... then it ain't from here.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 15 of 52 (690568)
02-14-2013 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dr Adequate
02-14-2013 10:17 AM


We have no reason to suggest the lion is not a product of evolution.
After the griffin, we'd have a reason to suggest that anything might not be.
No. A single stark outlier would not negate an overwhelming robust body of work. Such an extraordinary claim would require extraordinary evidence. A single griffin is not extraordinary evidence since other viable explanations could be made.

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