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Author Topic:   Stand Your Ground ... Again
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 1 of 46 (665529)
06-14-2012 4:40 PM


Here.
Comments?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Coragyps, posted 06-14-2012 4:53 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 3 by vimesey, posted 06-14-2012 4:58 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 4 by fearandloathing, posted 06-14-2012 4:58 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 5 by subbie, posted 06-14-2012 5:02 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 06-14-2012 5:05 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 2 of 46 (665531)
06-14-2012 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
06-14-2012 4:40 PM


My comment is that I want to move to Costa Rica.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-14-2012 4:40 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 3 of 46 (665533)
06-14-2012 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
06-14-2012 4:40 PM


The world is full of pathetic, angry morons like Raul Rodriguez. If you let people keep guns, and give out the message that there are ever more circumstances in which it's right to shoot someone dead, then the pathetic, angry morons are going to kill innocent people.
It's a crumb of comfort, though, that it seems like the right decision was reached here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-14-2012 4:40 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 4 of 46 (665534)
06-14-2012 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
06-14-2012 4:40 PM


Stand your ground laws are double edged.
I would have called the law and let them deal with it, I think it was a poor choice to carry a camera and a gun to a neighbors party to complain about noise. Defending yourself is one thing, but when you feel the need to arm yourself before asking a neighbor to cut it down then you should probably let law deal with it. The camera, I am sure didn't help. Alcohol may have been a contributing factor also?
I think Rodriguez made a series of poor decisions.

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
― Edward R. Murrow
"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-14-2012 4:40 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 5 of 46 (665538)
06-14-2012 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
06-14-2012 4:40 PM


First, I never trust what the press says about a case; they usually get something wrong, often something significant.
That having been said, if what the report says is accurate, it appears that the jury believed that the guy was the aggressor in the incident. In that case, he is not entitled to assert any kind of self-defense unless he withdraws and is then pursued.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-14-2012 4:40 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-14-2012 5:28 PM subbie has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 6 of 46 (665539)
06-14-2012 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
06-14-2012 4:40 PM


Surely "standing your ground" only applies to your own ground. The neighbour might have been justified in shooting him but not vice versa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-14-2012 4:40 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 7 of 46 (665542)
06-14-2012 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by subbie
06-14-2012 5:02 PM


First, I never trust what the press says about a case; they usually get something wrong, often something significant.
He videotaped the confrontation and entered it as an exhibit in his own defense. Yeah, that worked so well.
This is the main reason why I brought it up again, I saw the video. It seems to me that saying the magic words: "I am in fear for my life" is not a magical incantation that lets you shoot whoever you want. Especially if you're pointing a gun at your victim when you say it and he is unarmed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by subbie, posted 06-14-2012 5:02 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by subbie, posted 06-14-2012 6:03 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 8 of 46 (665543)
06-14-2012 5:36 PM


When you go looking
When you go looking for trouble, you often find it.
I have no problem with either 'Stand your ground' or 'the Castle Doctrine' and in this case it seems that based on the information so far the law was applied reasonably.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 9 of 46 (665550)
06-14-2012 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dr Adequate
06-14-2012 5:28 PM


No, it isn't. In fact, the first thing it makes me think is that he was planning ahead and went over there with the idea in mind of trying to manufacture a self-defense claim.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-14-2012 5:28 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 10 of 46 (665551)
06-14-2012 6:22 PM


Setting Good Examples
Headline.... "Former fireman Kills Teacher"

A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
― Edward R. Murrow
"You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them" - Ray Bradbury

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 11 of 46 (665552)
06-14-2012 6:28 PM


Seems like he was "standing his ground" though, if that is what the law allows.
First, he was carrying a gun because he DOES have a concealed weapons permit which allows him to do so. That's what the permit is for. Second, he was pursued out into the street by three (assumingly drunk) men from the party. The stand your ground law allows him to stand his ground "in the street" too.
He felt his life was in danger when three men came at him and so he used his gun. He stood his ground. What did he do wrong?
This will get over turned, they seem to be making a point with this case after the Trayvon incident.
- Oni

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by subbie, posted 06-14-2012 6:55 PM onifre has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(2)
Message 12 of 46 (665554)
06-14-2012 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by onifre
06-14-2012 6:28 PM


He was the aggressor. He went over there, gun in hand, to start trouble, not defend himself. He had a camera in his hand, obviously with the idea in mind that he could manufacture a self-defense claim. He pulled the gun and the other people in the video put their hands up and backed away. At the moment he pulled the gun, nobody had made any threatening moves to him and nobody else had pulled a weapon.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by onifre, posted 06-14-2012 6:28 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by onifre, posted 06-14-2012 7:01 PM subbie has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 13 of 46 (665556)
06-14-2012 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by subbie
06-14-2012 6:55 PM


He was the aggressor. He went over there, gun in hand, to start trouble, not defend himself. He had a camera in his hand, obviously with the idea in mind that he could manufacture a self-defense claim. He pulled the gun and the other people in the video put their hands up and backed away. At the moment he pulled the gun, nobody had made any threatening moves to him and nobody else had pulled a weapon.
But that's not when he shot anyone. He may have been acting like a dick waving a gun around but he never fired.
He shot when three men, in the street, went at him. That IS in fact acting in line with the "stand your ground" law.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by subbie, posted 06-14-2012 6:55 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 06-14-2012 7:07 PM onifre has replied
 Message 16 by subbie, posted 06-14-2012 7:38 PM onifre has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(1)
Message 14 of 46 (665558)
06-14-2012 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by onifre
06-14-2012 7:01 PM


That's like saying "sure, I pushed him off the cliff, but it was gravity that killed him."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by onifre, posted 06-14-2012 7:01 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by onifre, posted 06-14-2012 7:13 PM crashfrog has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 15 of 46 (665559)
06-14-2012 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by crashfrog
06-14-2012 7:07 PM


That's like saying "sure, I pushed him off the cliff, but it was gravity that killed him."
No it's not.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 06-14-2012 7:07 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 06-14-2012 7:39 PM onifre has replied

  
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