Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Does exorcism work?
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 1 of 57 (493937)
01-11-2009 8:17 PM


I had a discussion with John 10:10 about the validity of exorcism as discussed here: Message 44.
I proposed a case study as shown below:
Myself writes:
It would be interesting to see some type of case study in which two groups are given separate therapeutic treatments. Let's say 15 people all afflicted with the same condition, say heroine addiction. One group is given professional drug counseling and medicine and the other group of 15 are strictly treated with exorcism by three expert Christian exorcists. Both treatments are administer for 12 months. Then lets compare the two groups.
Questions I would like to be answered in this discussionare:
1. Is this a valid case study?,
2. Has this type of study been conducted before? And if so what were the results, and
3. Is exorcism a valid therapeutic treatment for treating mental and physical illnesses? Why or why not?
Ground rules:
1. This is not a discussion of why belief in Christianity (or any other religious belief) is right or wrong. It is strictly a discussion of whether exorcism really works or not.
2. This is not a discussion for or against the existence of demons, this is discussed here: Message 1.
3. Citing Bible scripture (or any other unsubstantiated religious scripture) is not valid evidence.
4. Keep on topic and be honest.
5. Provide logically sound and coherent arguments. No circular reasoning or resorting to logical fallacies.
6. Provide substantiated empirical evidence for or against.
7. Be polite, no ad hominum attacks.
Any psychology or psychiatry majors or professionals are highly encouraged to participate.
Thanks for participating in my first proposed topic.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Rrhain, posted 01-12-2009 1:41 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 8 by frako, posted 11-26-2011 6:02 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2011 5:24 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 19 by Trixie, posted 11-27-2011 5:22 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 57 (493950)
01-11-2009 11:33 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 3 of 57 (493959)
01-12-2009 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate
01-11-2009 8:17 PM


DevilsAdvocate writes:
quote:
Is exorcism a valid therapeutic treatment for treating mental and physical illnesses? Why or why not?
If I recall, there have been times when "exorcism" has been used in treating mental illness. The rationalization is that the patient is under extreme delusion of being possessed and an exorcism will help to have the patient work with the rest of treatment: Since the "demons" have been cleansed, the patient can focus on everything else that needs to be taken care of.
It is controversial and rare since it is specifically feeding into the patient's neurosis. Too, the clergy involved would be practicing outside of most normal channels: Exorcism is not to be used for a "placebo effect."
With regard to your experiment, no legitimate clergy would agree to it: An exorcism would only be called for in cases of real suspected possession. How would you go about finding candidates? And if they were considered "legitimate" by the clergy, how would you convince them that the ones in the control group are in good hands when they are being plagued by demons?
On a side note, DevilsAdvocate quotes Myself:
quote:
heroine addiction
You mean like having an unnatural fixation on Wonder Woman?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-11-2009 8:17 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-12-2009 11:23 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 4 of 57 (493984)
01-12-2009 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Rrhain
01-12-2009 1:41 AM


If I recall, there have been times when "exorcism" has been used in treating mental illness. The rationalization is that the patient is under extreme delusion of being possessed and an exorcism will help to have the patient work with the rest of treatment: Since the "demons" have been cleansed, the patient can focus on everything else that needs to be taken care of.
It is controversial and rare since it is specifically feeding into the patient's neurosis. Too, the clergy involved would be practicing outside of most normal channels: Exorcism is not to be used for a "placebo effect."
Thanks Rrhain,
I agree with your assesment that exorcism feed into the patients nuerosis. It is seems that in many of these cases, people are built up into such a fanatic, frenzied state that it paves the way for the local witch doctor/shaman/exorcist to come in and miraculously "heal" the "demon possessed" person.
Has anyone either seen or heard about a case of demon possession/exorcism and if so what was the end result? Youtube videos don't really count since we only get a 5-10 minute snapshot of the event. I would like to know the whole background behind these stories.
Having taken college psychology, sociology and anthropology classes I find this area of the human experience facinating and worth exploring.
With regard to your experiment, no legitimate clergy would agree to it: An exorcism would only be called for in cases of real suspected possession. How would you go about finding candidates? And if they were considered "legitimate" by the clergy, how would you convince them that the ones in the control group are in good hands when they are being plagued by demons?
That makes sense. I guess it wouldn't work then.
Rrhain writes:
Myself writes:
Let's say 15 people all afflicted with the same condition, say heroine addiction.
You mean like having an unnatural fixation on Wonder Woman?
ROTFLMAO. Now that's funny. Here's my sign!

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Rrhain, posted 01-12-2009 1:41 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


(1)
Message 5 of 57 (493986)
01-12-2009 11:32 AM


What might be interesting is if someone (say an atheist) posed as a priest and carried out an exorcism and the patient was freed from their demons.

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-12-2009 2:24 PM Brian has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 6 of 57 (494017)
01-12-2009 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Brian
01-12-2009 11:32 AM


What might be interesting is if someone (say an atheist) posed as a priest and carried out an exorcism and the patient was freed from their demons.
I guess this would be considered an exorcism placebo effect!

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Brian, posted 01-12-2009 11:32 AM Brian has not replied

  
zhenghan1019 
Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 4503 days)
Posts: 5
From: , Öйú
Joined: 11-25-2011


Message 7 of 57 (642124)
11-25-2011 9:10 PM


I really relate to that post. Thanks for the info.
----------------------------------------------
nfl shop
Edited by AdminModulous, : spam

  
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 8 of 57 (642162)
11-26-2011 6:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate
01-11-2009 8:17 PM


1. This is not a discussion of why belief in Christianity (or any other religious belief) is right or wrong. It is strictly a discussion of whether exorcism really works or not.
I know this is an old post but i kind of find it interesting.
The mind is very powerful it can make you sick when you are healthy and heal you when you are sick.
I think exorcism works in the same way, as magic does if you believe in it it can have a placebo effect. There is a story when an elderly woman came to a hospital in terrible pain screaming it is the root that is causing this, and that she wants her legs cut off, to stop the pain. Most of them dint know what she was talking about but one attendant knew she was talking about voodoo curse so they had an idea to do an un cursing ritual and it helped the woman the pain was gone. I dont believe there was any curse just the womans mind believing so strongly she was cursed that the mind manifested pain in the womans legs, and when the ritual was done she believed it worked and her mind stopped manifesting her pain.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-11-2009 8:17 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 57 (642210)
11-26-2011 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate
01-11-2009 8:17 PM


DA writes:
I had a discussion with John 10:10 about the validity of exorcism as discussed here: Message 44.
I proposed a case study as shown below:
Myself writes:
It would be interesting to see some type of case study in which two groups are given separate therapeutic treatments. Let's say 15 people all afflicted with the same condition, say heroine addiction. One group is given professional drug counseling and medicine and the other group of 15 are strictly treated with exorcism by three expert Christian exorcists. Both treatments are administer for 12 months. Then lets compare the two groups.
Questions I would like to be answered in this discussionare:
1. Is this a valid case study?,
2. Has this type of study been conducted before? And if so what were the results, and
3. Is exorcism a valid therapeutic treatment for treating mental and physical illnesses? Why or why not?
Ground rules:
1. This is not a discussion of why belief in Christianity (or any other religious belief) is right or wrong. It is strictly a discussion of whether exorcism really works or not.
2. This is not a discussion for or against the existence of demons, this is discussed here: Message 1.
If this discussion is not to pertain to Christianity or the existence of demons, as per the Bible, why then does the practitioner need be a Biblical Christian??
Whoever heard of a Buddist, Muslim or Pagan exorcist casting out anything? As per the NT, Jesus said demons will not cast out demons.
The only recorded historical exorcists that I am aware of were the Biblical apostles who cast out demons.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-11-2009 8:17 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Theodoric, posted 11-26-2011 5:37 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 11 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2011 6:01 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 18 by frako, posted 11-27-2011 5:03 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 25 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-27-2011 8:31 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 27 by Omnivorous, posted 11-27-2011 10:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 10 of 57 (642213)
11-26-2011 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
11-26-2011 5:24 PM


Whoever heard of a Buddist, Muslim or Pagan exorcist casting out anything? As per the NT, Jesus said demons will not cast out demons.
So Buddhists, Muslims and Pagans are demons?
The only recorded historical exorcists that I am aware of were the Biblical apostles who cast out demons.
Historical? Really? Can you provide the historical sources for this?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2011 5:24 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2011 8:21 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 11 of 57 (642223)
11-26-2011 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
11-26-2011 5:24 PM


Whoever heard of a Buddist, Muslim or Pagan exorcist casting out anything?
Me, Kazuaki Kinoshita and unfortunately, Tomomi Maishigi (and now, you!)
quote:
News reports said the two men poured water over her as an "exorcism" with the father holding the girl down while the monk chanted sutras...
The monk, who belongs to a religious group deriving from a Buddhist sect, said that the girl was possessed by an evil spirit, the private network TBS said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2011 5:24 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2011 8:09 PM Modulous has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 57 (642227)
11-26-2011 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Modulous
11-26-2011 6:01 PM


Re: Exorcists
Modulous writes:
Whoever heard of a Buddist, Muslim or Pagan exorcist casting out anything?
Me, Kazuaki Kinoshita and unfortunately, Tomomi Maishigi (and now, you!)
quote:
News reports said the two men poured water over her as an "exorcism" with the father holding the girl down while the monk chanted sutras...
The monk, who belongs to a religious group deriving from a Buddhist sect, said that the girl was possessed by an evil spirit, the private network TBS said.
This appears to be one non-sequitur isolated failed attempt to cast out anything but the life of the victim via physical abuse.
Your strawman implicating me as an exorcist is unfounded.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2011 6:01 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Modulous, posted 11-26-2011 10:29 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 13 of 57 (642228)
11-26-2011 8:19 PM


There are no demons so exorcism is simply silly
The only demons are just plain humans so exorcism is purposeless. The only good exorcism is medical knowledge.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 57 (642229)
11-26-2011 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Theodoric
11-26-2011 5:37 PM


Theodoric writes:
So Buddhists, Muslims and Pagans are demons?
Say what? The above are human beings.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Theodoric, posted 11-26-2011 5:37 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Theodoric, posted 11-26-2011 8:58 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 15 of 57 (642233)
11-26-2011 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Buzsaw
11-26-2011 8:21 PM


If that isn't what you meant, then you need to write more clear. Because that is what I think anyone would get from what you wrote.
lets break it down.
Whoever heard of a Buddist, Muslim or Pagan exorcist casting out anything?
Here you state that it is ridiculous to think those groups could cast out demons.
The next sentence seems to say why it is ridiculous.
As per the NT, Jesus said demons will not cast out demons.
Cause they are demons. That is what those sentence say when read together. If you meant something else you should hae written something else.
Oh btw, still waiting for the historical records you mentioned.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2011 8:21 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 11-26-2011 11:05 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024