|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total) |
| |
popoi | |
Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Does exorcism work? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3101 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
I had a discussion with John 10:10 about the validity of exorcism as discussed here: Message 44.
I proposed a case study as shown below:
Myself writes: It would be interesting to see some type of case study in which two groups are given separate therapeutic treatments. Let's say 15 people all afflicted with the same condition, say heroine addiction. One group is given professional drug counseling and medicine and the other group of 15 are strictly treated with exorcism by three expert Christian exorcists. Both treatments are administer for 12 months. Then lets compare the two groups. Questions I would like to be answered in this discussionare: 1. Is this a valid case study?,2. Has this type of study been conducted before? And if so what were the results, and 3. Is exorcism a valid therapeutic treatment for treating mental and physical illnesses? Why or why not? Ground rules: 1. This is not a discussion of why belief in Christianity (or any other religious belief) is right or wrong. It is strictly a discussion of whether exorcism really works or not.2. This is not a discussion for or against the existence of demons, this is discussed here: Message 1. 3. Citing Bible scripture (or any other unsubstantiated religious scripture) is not valid evidence. 4. Keep on topic and be honest. 5. Provide logically sound and coherent arguments. No circular reasoning or resorting to logical fallacies. 6. Provide substantiated empirical evidence for or against. 7. Be polite, no ad hominum attacks. Any psychology or psychiatry majors or professionals are highly encouraged to participate. Thanks for participating in my first proposed topic. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
DevilsAdvocate writes:
quote: If I recall, there have been times when "exorcism" has been used in treating mental illness. The rationalization is that the patient is under extreme delusion of being possessed and an exorcism will help to have the patient work with the rest of treatment: Since the "demons" have been cleansed, the patient can focus on everything else that needs to be taken care of. It is controversial and rare since it is specifically feeding into the patient's neurosis. Too, the clergy involved would be practicing outside of most normal channels: Exorcism is not to be used for a "placebo effect." With regard to your experiment, no legitimate clergy would agree to it: An exorcism would only be called for in cases of real suspected possession. How would you go about finding candidates? And if they were considered "legitimate" by the clergy, how would you convince them that the ones in the control group are in good hands when they are being plagued by demons? On a side note, DevilsAdvocate quotes Myself:
quote: You mean like having an unnatural fixation on Wonder Woman? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3101 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
If I recall, there have been times when "exorcism" has been used in treating mental illness. The rationalization is that the patient is under extreme delusion of being possessed and an exorcism will help to have the patient work with the rest of treatment: Since the "demons" have been cleansed, the patient can focus on everything else that needs to be taken care of. It is controversial and rare since it is specifically feeding into the patient's neurosis. Too, the clergy involved would be practicing outside of most normal channels: Exorcism is not to be used for a "placebo effect." Thanks Rrhain, I agree with your assesment that exorcism feed into the patients nuerosis. It is seems that in many of these cases, people are built up into such a fanatic, frenzied state that it paves the way for the local witch doctor/shaman/exorcist to come in and miraculously "heal" the "demon possessed" person. Has anyone either seen or heard about a case of demon possession/exorcism and if so what was the end result? Youtube videos don't really count since we only get a 5-10 minute snapshot of the event. I would like to know the whole background behind these stories. Having taken college psychology, sociology and anthropology classes I find this area of the human experience facinating and worth exploring.
With regard to your experiment, no legitimate clergy would agree to it: An exorcism would only be called for in cases of real suspected possession. How would you go about finding candidates? And if they were considered "legitimate" by the clergy, how would you convince them that the ones in the control group are in good hands when they are being plagued by demons? That makes sense. I guess it wouldn't work then.
Rrhain writes: Myself writes: You mean like having an unnatural fixation on Wonder Woman? Let's say 15 people all afflicted with the same condition, say heroine addiction. ROTFLMAO. Now that's funny. Here's my sign! For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Brian Member (Idle past 4959 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined:
|
What might be interesting is if someone (say an atheist) posed as a priest and carried out an exorcism and the patient was freed from their demons.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3101 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
What might be interesting is if someone (say an atheist) posed as a priest and carried out an exorcism and the patient was freed from their demons. I guess this would be considered an exorcism placebo effect! For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
zhenghan1019  Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 4503 days) Posts: 5 From: , Öйú Joined: |
I really relate to that post. Thanks for the info.
----------------------------------------------
nfl shop Edited by AdminModulous, : spam
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
frako Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined:
|
1. This is not a discussion of why belief in Christianity (or any other religious belief) is right or wrong. It is strictly a discussion of whether exorcism really works or not. I know this is an old post but i kind of find it interesting. The mind is very powerful it can make you sick when you are healthy and heal you when you are sick. I think exorcism works in the same way, as magic does if you believe in it it can have a placebo effect. There is a story when an elderly woman came to a hospital in terrible pain screaming it is the root that is causing this, and that she wants her legs cut off, to stop the pain. Most of them dint know what she was talking about but one attendant knew she was talking about voodoo curse so they had an idea to do an un cursing ritual and it helped the woman the pain was gone. I dont believe there was any curse just the womans mind believing so strongly she was cursed that the mind manifested pain in the womans legs, and when the ritual was done she believed it worked and her mind stopped manifesting her pain. Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
DA writes: I had a discussion with John 10:10 about the validity of exorcism as discussed here: Message 44.I proposed a case study as shown below: Myself writes: It would be interesting to see some type of case study in which two groups are given separate therapeutic treatments. Let's say 15 people all afflicted with the same condition, say heroine addiction. One group is given professional drug counseling and medicine and the other group of 15 are strictly treated with exorcism by three expert Christian exorcists. Both treatments are administer for 12 months. Then lets compare the two groups. Questions I would like to be answered in this discussionare: 1. Is this a valid case study?,2. Has this type of study been conducted before? And if so what were the results, and 3. Is exorcism a valid therapeutic treatment for treating mental and physical illnesses? Why or why not? Ground rules: 1. This is not a discussion of why belief in Christianity (or any other religious belief) is right or wrong. It is strictly a discussion of whether exorcism really works or not.2. This is not a discussion for or against the existence of demons, this is discussed here: Message 1. If this discussion is not to pertain to Christianity or the existence of demons, as per the Bible, why then does the practitioner need be a Biblical Christian?? Whoever heard of a Buddist, Muslim or Pagan exorcist casting out anything? As per the NT, Jesus said demons will not cast out demons. The only recorded historical exorcists that I am aware of were the Biblical apostles who cast out demons. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7
|
Whoever heard of a Buddist, Muslim or Pagan exorcist casting out anything? As per the NT, Jesus said demons will not cast out demons.
So Buddhists, Muslims and Pagans are demons?
The only recorded historical exorcists that I am aware of were the Biblical apostles who cast out demons.
Historical? Really? Can you provide the historical sources for this?Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Whoever heard of a Buddist, Muslim or Pagan exorcist casting out anything? Me, Kazuaki Kinoshita and unfortunately, Tomomi Maishigi (and now, you!)
quote:
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Modulous writes: Whoever heard of a Buddist, Muslim or Pagan exorcist casting out anything?
Me, Kazuaki Kinoshita and unfortunately, Tomomi Maishigi (and now, you!)
quote: This appears to be one non-sequitur isolated failed attempt to cast out anything but the life of the victim via physical abuse. Your strawman implicating me as an exorcist is unfounded. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
|
The only demons are just plain humans so exorcism is purposeless. The only good exorcism is medical knowledge.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped! |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Theodoric writes: So Buddhists, Muslims and Pagans are demons? Say what? The above are human beings. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9076 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.7
|
If that isn't what you meant, then you need to write more clear. Because that is what I think anyone would get from what you wrote.
lets break it down.
Whoever heard of a Buddist, Muslim or Pagan exorcist casting out anything?
Here you state that it is ridiculous to think those groups could cast out demons.The next sentence seems to say why it is ridiculous. As per the NT, Jesus said demons will not cast out demons. Cause they are demons. That is what those sentence say when read together. If you meant something else you should hae written something else. Oh btw, still waiting for the historical records you mentioned.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024