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Author Topic:   Transmission of data by LED light
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1 of 32 (630862)
08-28-2011 6:20 PM


There's a lot of bright lights around here and I was wondering if any of you had any thoughts on this.
Wireless Data from Every Light Bulb

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 Message 8 by fearandloathing, posted 08-29-2011 10:20 AM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 32 (630867)
08-28-2011 7:58 PM


How do you get the data to the light bulb?
How is data addressed?
How do you get the right data to the right light bulb?
What is the infrastructure?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 08-28-2011 8:26 PM jar has seen this message but not replied
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3 of 32 (630873)
08-28-2011 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
08-28-2011 7:58 PM


Hi jar,
Yeah a bunch of unanswered questions, and I've been thinking on it some.
It could, ostensibly, be passed from light bulb to light bulb or from device to light bulb.
It would have to use some kind of IP system.
A lot of things to develop ...
but soon big brother may be blinking at you ......
OR free internet broadband at the speed of light?
Both?
Pandora's box?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 08-28-2011 7:58 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

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 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 08-28-2011 10:02 PM RAZD has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 4 of 32 (630883)
08-28-2011 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
08-28-2011 7:58 PM


How do you get the data to the light bulb?
Cheap microprocessors.
How is data addressed?
How do you get the right data to the right light bulb?
The great part about Ethernet-style networking is that it works on any kind of physical layer: wires, radios, optical transmission, even sonically. You could use Ethernet to network guys pounding drums if you could teach them to roll dice, too.
Transmission rates aren't going to be very high at these intensities, but someone in the comments of the linked video has an interesting notion of car taillights transmitting information about the current detected rate of speed, the car's VIN number, and other such information. Having cars in the front communicate information to cars in the rear has very useful implications for automated driving.

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 Message 2 by jar, posted 08-28-2011 7:58 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 32 (630884)
08-28-2011 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
08-28-2011 9:56 PM


Yes, simple line of sight uses are areas where this technology could be used, but that is NOT related to what was presented.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 08-28-2011 9:56 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 6 of 32 (630885)
08-28-2011 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
08-28-2011 8:26 PM


It would have to use some kind of IP system.
You're thinking at the wrong layer. This is physical layer, IP-style addressing is network layer. MAC-style addressing would work just fine, since the endpoints of the physical layer are relatively well-defined; these are all point-to-point connections for the most part (star topology, at most.)
OR free internet broadband at the speed of light?
Transmission rates for this are probably not very high given that the light also has to retain its usefulness as illumination. That's going to practically limit data transmission to perhaps a fifth or so of its potential. Too much data on the LED and it'll be much dimmer as a result of all those zeros.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 08-28-2011 8:26 PM RAZD has replied

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 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 08-28-2011 11:29 PM crashfrog has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 32 (630895)
08-28-2011 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by crashfrog
08-28-2011 10:02 PM


Thanks crashfrog,
You're thinking at the wrong layer.
Still needs to get from A to B and then back to A for the information to be useful/used. Your diagram shows what I meant (path determination & logical addressing (IP)).
Transmission rates for this are probably not very high given that the light also has to retain its usefulness as illumination. That's going to practically limit data transmission to perhaps a fifth or so of its potential. Too much data on the LED and it'll be much dimmer as a result of all those zeros.
IIRC, he said you could dim the lights at night below human detection threshold and still transmit data. You could also modulate the brightness between bright and not-so bright, and maintain level of light desired.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by crashfrog, posted 08-28-2011 10:02 PM crashfrog has replied

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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 8 of 32 (630915)
08-29-2011 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
08-28-2011 6:20 PM


Your light bulb idea is the weak link, the rest of the technology exists and is already in use as far as how you could get data over power lines. Essentially you are wanting to know about data being transferred over power lines and how it could be received by a computer?
quote:
US FCC
On 14 October 2004, the U.S. Federal Communications Commission adopted rules to facilitate the deployment of "Access BPL", the marketing term for Internet access service over power lines. The technical rules are more liberal than those advanced by the US national amateur radio organization, the American Radio Relay League (ARRL), and other spectrum users, but include provisions that require BPL providers to investigate and correct any interference they cause. These rules may be subject to future litigation.[citation needed] One service was announced in 2004 for Ohio, Kentucky, and Indiana.[17]
On 3 August 2006 FCC adopted a memorandum opinion and an order on broadband over power lines, giving the go-ahead to promote broadband service to all Americans.[18] The order rejected calls from aviation, business, commercial, amateur radio and other sectors of spectrum users to limit or prohibit deployment until further study was completed. FCC chief Kevin Martin said that BPL "holds great promise as a ubiquitous broadband solution that would offer a viable alternative to cable, digital subscriber line, fiber, and wireless broadband solutions
Full article
There are much better ways to get data to and from power lines as is shown in the wiki article.

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 08-28-2011 6:20 PM GDR has not replied

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 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 08-29-2011 4:41 PM fearandloathing has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 32 (630967)
08-29-2011 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by fearandloathing
08-29-2011 10:20 AM


Thanks for the powerline information, fearandloathing, it looks like existing technology exists then, to implement this.
Your light bulb idea is the weak link,
What I like about this idea is that it gives you the freedom of wifi in any room equipped with broadcast and reception light systems, without the security leak issues (ie don't need security locks on your lifi like you do on wifi to prevent others from using or seeing your use).
And that it is broadbroadband. That means much better than 4G can deliver.
My parents live in a hollow along the seashore, and cell phone reception is poor at best, data reception is worse (no 3G to say nothing of 4G).
One could have skype phones to use indoors as well (replace landlines and have all the technology of cell phones).
The weak link here then is using it outdoors.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by fearandloathing, posted 08-29-2011 10:20 AM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 08-29-2011 4:47 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 11 by fearandloathing, posted 08-29-2011 4:58 PM RAZD has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 32 (630968)
08-29-2011 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
08-29-2011 4:41 PM


The problem though is in the transportation system.. Our power distribution system is already really lossy so we are still limited by the size of the pipe getting to the device and security all along the way. Capacity and security were two of the items mentioned and for this to work either every light bulb transmits every packet or there must be some method of addressing where the receiving device notifies the light bulb to establish a pathway.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 08-29-2011 4:41 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 11 of 32 (630971)
08-29-2011 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
08-29-2011 4:41 PM


What I like about this idea is that it gives you the freedom of wifi in any room equipped with broadcast and reception light systems
I am a communications enthusiast and an amateur operator and remember some of the arguments against using power lines for data, interference and security mostly. That's the only reason I knew about this. I am all for it though.
If a simple microprocessor was used then I am sure that it would be easy to incorporate infrared LEDs and also infrared photo detectors in a light-bulb package that could also still work as a source or light independent of it's other use as a channel for data transfer. There would be a few things to overcome...specialized lampshades... an industry standard...ect
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 08-29-2011 4:41 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 08-29-2011 5:21 PM fearandloathing has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 12 of 32 (630976)
08-29-2011 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by fearandloathing
08-29-2011 4:58 PM


If a simple microprocessor was used then I am sure that it would be easy to incorporate infrared LEDs and also infrared photo detectors in a light-bulb package that could also still work as a source or light independent of it's other use as a channel for data transfer. There would be a few things to overcome...specialized lampshades... an industry standard...ect
What if you just had a dedicated light with the chip installed to use near your computer?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by fearandloathing, posted 08-29-2011 4:58 PM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by fearandloathing, posted 08-29-2011 5:30 PM RAZD has replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 13 of 32 (630977)
08-29-2011 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by RAZD
08-29-2011 5:21 PM


That would work, you could carry it with you anywhere that is in the network, rather bulky. A smaller wireless interface between a plug and socket seems like a better alternative it leaves the complicated bulb out of it and uses off the shelf technology.
My question is why use light at all?
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 08-29-2011 5:21 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 08-29-2011 5:32 PM fearandloathing has replied
 Message 15 by RAZD, posted 08-29-2011 5:33 PM fearandloathing has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 32 (630978)
08-29-2011 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by fearandloathing
08-29-2011 5:30 PM


Light has far greater bandwidth.
But there is the rub.
Communication is limited to the speed of the slowest link and light is line of sight and subject to medium degradation.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by fearandloathing, posted 08-29-2011 5:30 PM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by fearandloathing, posted 08-29-2011 6:18 PM jar has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 15 of 32 (630979)
08-29-2011 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by fearandloathing
08-29-2011 5:30 PM


A smaller wireless interface between a plug and socket seems like a better alternative. Leave the complicated bulb out of it.
A plug-in "night-light" would be portable, something like blue-tooth, and the technology could also be used for keyboards and mice.
Again the light limits the broadcast to improve security issues.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by fearandloathing, posted 08-29-2011 5:30 PM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by fearandloathing, posted 08-29-2011 5:49 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
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