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Author Topic:   Design evidence # 111: The heart
DanskerMan
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 82 (31197)
02-04-2003 12:07 AM


The human heart is a marvel of engineering. Lets have a look at a simple heartbeat from Page not found - Texas Medical Center :
quote:
A heartbeat is a two-part pumping action that takes about a second. As blood collects in the upper chambers (the right and left atria), the heart's natural pacemaker (the SA node) sends out an electrical signal that causes the atria to contract. This contraction pushes blood through the tricuspid and mitral valves into the resting lower chambers (the right and left ventricles). This part of the two-part pumping phase (the longer of the two) is called the diastole.
The second part of the pumping phase begins when the ventricles are full of blood. The electrical signals from the SA node travel along a pathway of cells to the ventricles, causing them to contract. This is called systole. As the tricuspid and mitral valves shut tight to prevent a back flow of blood, the pulmonary and aortic valves are pushed open. While blood is pushed from the right ventricle into the lungs to pick up oxygen, oxygen-rich blood flows from the left ventricle to the heart and other parts of the body.
After blood moves into the pulmonary artery and the aorta, the ventricles relax, and the pulmonary and aortic valves close. The lower pressure in the ventricles causes the tricuspid and mitral valves to open, and the cycle begins again. This series of contractions is repeated over and over again, increasing during times of exertion and decreasing while you are at rest.
Your heart does not work alone, though. Your brain tracks the conditions around youclimate, stress, and your level of physical activityand adjusts your cardiovascular system to meet those needs.
The human heart is a muscle designed to remain strong and reliable for a hundred years or longer. By reducing your risk factors for cardiovascular disease, you may help your heart stay healthy longer.
(emphasis added)
The Texas Heart Institute recognizes DESIGN! And so they should. The heart could not have evolved in darwinian step-by-step fashion. Everything has to be in place and working properly for the heart to function.
The four valves, the four chambers, the intricate network of blood vessels that enter and exit the heart, the pacemaker (sinoatrial node), the accelerator nerves that link the heart to the central nervous system, not to mention the centrifugal flow of blood within the blood vessels.
The blood vessel pathways are helical and designed with a spiraling effect built in, this prevents a potential for friction to build up as the blood flows through the heart, the arteries, the capillaries, and back to the heart through the veins.
The whole system is interdependent and precisely tuned, if it fails in one part, the whole system falters. (ref: Body by design, Dr. Alan Gillen)
The heart pumps approx. 2000 gallons of blood each day. Each heartbeat is perfect with valves preventing backflow, and specified chambers for specified functions. It is a wonderful testament to an Intelligent Designer who created in His divine wisdom.
------------------
"You can no more alter God than a pebble can alter the rhythm of the Pacific."

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by David unfamous, posted 02-04-2003 5:48 AM DanskerMan has not replied
 Message 5 by Silent H, posted 02-04-2003 10:07 AM DanskerMan has replied
 Message 9 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-04-2003 2:20 PM DanskerMan has not replied
 Message 23 by Peter, posted 02-12-2003 4:45 AM DanskerMan has not replied

  
lpetrich
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 82 (31205)
02-04-2003 2:09 AM


Demonstrably false bull excrement.
Which suggests an extreme level of ignorance of comparative anatomy and embryology.
There are many species with much simpler "designs" of heart. Fish have two-chambered hearts, and many amphibians and reptiles have three-chambered hearts. Furthermore, in embryonic development, three-chambered and four-chambered hearts emerge from two-chambered ones; the heart splits in two, becoming two sub-hearts.
Also, human embryos, like amniote embryos in general, go through a phase where their circulatory system has a very fishlike configuration, with ventral and dorsal aortas and aortic arches next to the gill bars. Some of those arches then self-destruct, which is an illogical way to install plumbing.
Finally, where does sonnikke get those numbers? Is he referring to some big list somewhere?

Replies to this message:
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David unfamous
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 82 (31212)
02-04-2003 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DanskerMan
02-04-2003 12:07 AM


"If it fails in one part, the whole system falters. It is a wonderful testament to an Intelligent Designer who created in His divine wisdom."
Until sonnike understands the very first basics of what evolution actually is, he'll never understand how ridiculous his logic is, and we'll keep getting these mysteriously numbered lists of hilarity.
Coming soon:
#67: Legs - How could legs walk around by themselves before bodies had evolved?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DanskerMan, posted 02-04-2003 12:07 AM DanskerMan has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 4 of 82 (31245)
02-04-2003 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by lpetrich
02-04-2003 2:09 AM


[QUOTE] by lpetrich+++++++++++++++++++++++
Finally, where does sonnikke get those numbers? Is he referring to some big list somewhere?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Who knows, I've been asking him for some time now and he isn't forthcoming with any answers.
He claims I added another piece of evidence to that list (brilliant guy that I am). I asked if he'd at least tell me what number it was so I'd know the size of the list, but he wouldn't tell me... such ingratitude!
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by lpetrich, posted 02-04-2003 2:09 AM lpetrich has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 5 of 82 (31249)
02-04-2003 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DanskerMan
02-04-2003 12:07 AM


[QUOTE]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The heart pumps approx. 2000 gallons of blood each day. Each heartbeat is perfect with valves preventing backflow, and specified chambers for specified functions. It is a wonderful testament to an Intelligent Designer who created in His divine wisdom.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Each heartbeat is PERFECT? Wow, someone tell that to my doctor. I was born with a heart murmur where my valves allow for plenty of backflow.
What a wonderful testament to an Intelligent Designer who created in His divine wisdom.
[QUOTE] by sonnikke++++++++++++++++++++++
Topic: Design evidence # 111: The heart
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Nothing to see here folks, move along. If you've seen garbage once you've seen it a million times and we've already seen this garbage twice...
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DanskerMan, posted 02-04-2003 12:07 AM DanskerMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by DanskerMan, posted 02-04-2003 11:20 AM Silent H has replied

  
DanskerMan
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 82 (31277)
02-04-2003 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Silent H
02-04-2003 10:07 AM


Holmes:
quote:
Each heartbeat is PERFECT? Wow, someone tell that to my doctor. I was born with a heart murmur where my valves allow for plenty of backflow.
Well then Holmes, YOU of all people should appreciate how delicate and precise this system is, and how any flaw is detrimental.
Something that couldn't just gradually assemble itself, by random mutation and natural selection.
If you don't like the topic, nobody's holding a gun to your head.
Regards,
S
------------------
"You can no more alter God than a pebble can alter the rhythm of the Pacific."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Silent H, posted 02-04-2003 10:07 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Silent H, posted 02-05-2003 11:32 AM DanskerMan has replied

  
Gzus
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 82 (31307)
02-04-2003 1:29 PM


Design evidence # 399 The scum that inhabits the hairs of my big toe
How beautifully and wonderfully it is made! a perfect ecosystem in complete harmony with its surroundings! what an accurate reflection of the creator's own toe-scum!

  
Zephan
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 82 (31311)
02-04-2003 1:41 PM


Gzus,
Actually toe scum was where all life came from. I thought you believed in evolution?

Replies to this message:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 9 of 82 (31317)
02-04-2003 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DanskerMan
02-04-2003 12:07 AM


quote:
(ref: Body by design, Dr. Alan Gillen)
Apparently the source of the list. I did a fairly hard try last night, to track down the list on-line - no success.
I did find lots of links to buying the book, at various creationist sites.
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DanskerMan, posted 02-04-2003 12:07 AM DanskerMan has not replied

  
DanskerMan
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 82 (31318)
02-04-2003 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Zephan
02-04-2003 1:41 PM


hee hee..I guess that's the best you could come up with.
That's okay, evidently I'm communicating with an "odd species of African apes"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Zephan, posted 02-04-2003 1:41 PM Zephan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Coragyps, posted 02-04-2003 4:38 PM DanskerMan has not replied
 Message 12 by Andya Primanda, posted 02-04-2003 10:18 PM DanskerMan has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 11 of 82 (31339)
02-04-2003 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by DanskerMan
02-04-2003 2:25 PM


This particular odd ape suggests that you go find a beginning biology text and read up on such things as earthworm hearts. Ten little pulsing enlargements in blood vessels... a great sort of start to build on over a few hundred million years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by DanskerMan, posted 02-04-2003 2:25 PM DanskerMan has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 82 (31376)
02-04-2003 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by DanskerMan
02-04-2003 2:25 PM


So you claim that you're a different species?
Well, the board rules says nothing about which species are allowed to participate. We're not speciesists. Any fish, plant, amphibian or sea slug can participate and debate with other primate members of this board.
[Admins: sorry bout the post. I might offend everyone on this board {except sonnikke} because I assume all members are advanced primates (i.e. humans). Apologies to those who are not human here, like the rodent and the moose who's abusing one admin's persona in Free For All]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by DanskerMan, posted 02-04-2003 2:25 PM DanskerMan has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 13 of 82 (31420)
02-05-2003 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by DanskerMan
02-04-2003 11:20 AM


[QUOTE] by sonnikke++++++++++++++++++++++++
Well then Holmes, YOU of all people should appreciate how delicate and precise this system is, and how any flaw is detrimental.
Something that couldn't just gradually assemble itself, by random mutation and natural selection.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How can there be a flaw if it is god's perfect handiwork (your claim)?
The fact that there are flaws in hearts indicates their imperfection and why each heart is the result of natural processes... built up through a long chain of imperfect reproductions (altered by "random mutation", and weeded out through the imperfect process of "natural selection").
[QUOTE] by sonnikke++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If you don't like the topic, nobody's holding a gun to your head.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I don't mind the topic. My problem is that your posts have nothing to do with the topic you say they do.
I keep coming in hoping to see some "evidence for design" advanced from a scientific perspective (scientific evidence).
Your posts are merely statements of belief, not evidence. You even say so when someone starts critiquing your evidence. Your "evidence" is so weak it doesn't even meet the criteria of ID theory.
The point of forums are to discuss theories and evidence, which is what I hope to do. But you stop responding to earlier topics which you started (when you can't argue them properly) only to start a new topic with the exact same reasoning. That's bad form... or bad forum?
What's worse is that your post for this topic is less coherent than for the other two topics (which you have not finished). Your reasoning here hinges on Platonic "ideals" and equivocation to make its point.
Believe me, when people advance logic this bad it makes me wish they'd held a gun to my head instead.
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by DanskerMan, posted 02-04-2003 11:20 AM DanskerMan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by DanskerMan, posted 02-05-2003 2:25 PM Silent H has replied

  
Zephan
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 82 (31424)
02-05-2003 11:51 AM


quote:
Believe me, when people advance logic this bad it makes me wish they'd held a gun to my head instead.
Well, holmes, that there is one sure fire way to prove to yourself God doesn't exist. If you only had the balls.

Replies to this message:
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DanskerMan
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 82 (31444)
02-05-2003 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Silent H
02-05-2003 11:32 AM


quote:
Holmes:How can there be a flaw if it is god's perfect handiwork (your claim)?
God's original perfect creation is degenerating because of the second law of thermodynamics, as you know.
Your(evo's) beloved "mutations" which are supposed to increase information and "create" new specified complexity, does the exact opposite. A heart flaw is a good example of the "wonders" of mutations.
The very fact that we all aren't born with heart defects or many other defects, is evidence for initial design, since mutations upon mutations without intelligence would firstly not even exist, and secondly prove very deadly.
The heart is incredible, the amount of work it does day in and day out. It's layout and design coupled with the interdependence on the brain and nervous system is very strong evidence of specified complexity.
http://www.leaderu.com/...ces/dembski/docs/bd-specified.html
If you tried to give a step by step description of how the human heart might have evolved, what kind of story would that be?
And, yes...if you really want to prove God's existence, a gun would suffice...
Regards,
S
------------------
"You can no more alter God than a pebble can alter the rhythm of the Pacific."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Silent H, posted 02-05-2003 11:32 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Silent H, posted 02-06-2003 1:54 PM DanskerMan has not replied

  
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