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Author Topic:   apologetics and reason
killinghurts
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 1 of 8 (565150)
06-15-2010 1:48 AM


I was reading an article the other day and found it almost laughable the apologetics being employed to bend and twist the words in the Bible.
This is the article.
http://www.womenpriests.org/scriptur/timothy.asp
Can anyone think of any other reason why this organisation (and I must state this is not the only organisation by a long shot) bends over backwards to change the meaning of bible passages other than to steer away from the (unimaginable it seems) conclusion that perhaps what the bible teaches is wrong?
Furthermore, why is it (and perhaps this should be in a different thread) that religious minds can hold every single passage as so sacred that they cannot possibly come to the most obvious conclusion (i.e. the Bible is out dated and simply wrong)?
Finally how can the human brain mask the cognitive dissonance associated with such apologetic conclusions?
Thanks

Replies to this message:
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AdminPD
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Message 2 of 8 (565335)
06-16-2010 7:16 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the apologetics and reason thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 3 of 8 (565345)
06-16-2010 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
06-15-2010 1:48 AM


Can anyone think of any other reason why this organisation (and I must state this is not the only organisation by a long shot) bends over backwards to change the meaning of bible passages other than to steer away from the (unimaginable it seems) conclusion that perhaps what the bible teaches is wrong?
I have often asked similar questions; never receiving any clear answers.
Why do people still preach from a Bible they consider contains incorrect or poorly translated passages?
Why not change the Bible to exactly what they think is correct?
How many more thousands of years will they wait before doing so?
In my opinion, there is only 1 possible answer. They leave the text as vague and woolly as possible, as it's much harder to criticise something if it's not clear what it stands for in the first place. It gives them innumerable escape routes. (A tactic that enabled Tony Blair, surely the most vacuous and pointless man in history, to stay in office for so long.)

This message is a reply to:
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Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 4 of 8 (565386)
06-16-2010 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
06-16-2010 9:12 AM


Chimp and the OP, I actually agree with both of you on this and it's the problem I have with TE, (among other issues such as the one the OP brought up).
Whether one agrees or disagrees that the Bible is "wrong" when it says only a man should be a church leader (i.e. pastor, priest, minister, ect as there are other roles for women such as a deaconess, worship leader, ect) is a separate debate in and of itself. But you've hit on a major point that has plagued Christianity since it's inception: "hey, we don't agree with this, the Bible must be wrong, so let's change it." Mind boggling to me to say the least, no matter what the issue might be.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 5 of 8 (565389)
06-16-2010 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
06-15-2010 1:48 AM


If this is the worst that you have seen, then you've been lucky. The inerrantists are even worse. Especially the amateurs that we get here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by killinghurts, posted 06-15-2010 1:48 AM killinghurts has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 6 of 8 (565395)
06-16-2010 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
06-15-2010 1:48 AM


Cognitive dissonance
Finally how can the human brain mask the cognitive dissonance associated with such apologetic conclusions?
I' be willing to bet they simply don't see the dissonance -- they can't see it or something, somewhere, in their dogma/worldview would have to change.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 7 of 8 (565398)
06-16-2010 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
06-15-2010 1:48 AM


Can anyone think of any other reason why this organisation (and I must state this is not the only organisation by a long shot) bends over backwards to change the meaning of bible passages other than to steer away from the (unimaginable it seems) conclusion that perhaps what the bible teaches is wrong?
They want their cake and to eat it too, plain and simple. They want all the good stuff, and will justify all the bad stuff. The bottom line is that there are misogynistic verses telling women to shut the hell up when they're in church. But these women are trying to find ways why God really doesn't care. They want to serve God, but they also want to speak and to lead, so they come up with reasons why God didn't really mean what's plain as day in the literature.
It's bullshit, and if they had any integrity, they'd give up one moral ground. You either have to abandon the notion that the bible is infallible or you have to realize that God doesn't want female leadership in the Church. Bottom line. You can't hold both positions simultaneously without contradicting yourself.
Furthermore, why is it (and perhaps this should be in a different thread) that religious minds can hold every single passage as so sacred that they cannot possibly come to the most obvious conclusion (i.e. the Bible is out dated and simply wrong)?
Well, they get it insofar as you see the kind of mental gymnastics they go through to make justifications for themselves and the bible. They just want all the lovey-dovey stuff without hearing about how God does not women to talk (let alone lead), does not want homosexuals to live, is all about smashing babies skulls on rocks, etc, etc.
They don't want to hear that shit because it fucks with their head.... As well, it should.
Finally how can the human brain mask the cognitive dissonance associated with such apologetic conclusions?
People will go to great lengths to justify what they choose to believe. But one day they'll realize that they've held on to this line that is getting thinner by the day, until the last thread finally snaps. Either they made a fairly smooth transition or it causes severe cognitive dissonance.
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : typos

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from mistaken conviction." — Blaise Pascal

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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4228 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


(1)
Message 8 of 8 (565436)
06-16-2010 6:48 PM


I think its just to continue to live the dream.
My personal example is of my friend who happens to be of a strict american protestant denomination, possibly one of those "evangelists", and who is against the consumption of alcohol, and can quote all the places it says (or he thinks) alcohol is wrong. Myself, being raised by Irish Catholics who like thier booze I could only reply with "what was Jesus' 1st miracle?", and if alcohol is so bad why didn't he turn water into coffee, instead of wine, does Jesus want to lead up into temptation and sin? to which he goes on to tell me how "wine" in the bible is really just "grape-juice", and how its a translation thing, yet other parts he takes very literally.
To me its just living the dream that this book is an infailible guide to how to live, even when very common sense observations would tell you otherwise.

  
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