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Author Topic:   How do I deal with a creationist family member?
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 1 of 86 (533959)
11-04-2009 1:12 AM


Ok: my girlfriend, the mother of my son (we have 3 altogether...long story)...is quite possibly a creationist. I say quite possibly because she doesn't go to church or really practice much of any religion. But, she adamantly believes in god and has the same stance about it as your typical creationist.
We had a *ahem* discussion last night about baptizing our son. I told her I had no qualms about it. The discussion went further on about my beliefs, or lack there of. She called me an occultist because, she says, she was raised to believe anyone who doesn't believe in YHWH is in an occultist because, in her mind, EVERYONE worships something, even non-believers, so you must worship a false idol, therefor tagging you as an occultist. She then proceeded to tell me how my life is fucked up because I don't have god in it and how I am going to hell. I told her "Judge not lest ye be judged" and she said my quoting the bible was akin to satan quoting the bible. i asked her: "how come I am able to quote the bible and you can't?" since she has appearingly little knowlege of actual scripture, and every time we have these discussions, she just yells alot and ends the discussion, without really giing a good argument why I should conform to her "ways".
We also got into how she doesn't "believe" in evolution. She says "we didn't come from dirt". I told her to re-read Genesis. She told me I had NO business telling her about HER bible. I asked her what version she reads. "St. James edition" she says. "Oh, you mean King James?" I retort. Rolling her eyes, obviously emberrased, "yes".
Now, as I said, I have no qualms with her showing and sharing her views with the kids. Diversity is good. however, when I said that i would show and teach them "my" way, she flipped and told me she won't allow me to "poison" them.
it doesn't sound like it, but she IS an otherwise intelligent woman, just totally ignorant and unwavering when it comes to religion.
My question is this: how can I talk to her and show her, not that she is wrong, but, to be more accepting of different viewpoints.
(note: she is italian/german and fits the prototypical sterotype i.e.: she is quite the opposite of passive.)
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Adminnemooseus
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Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 86 (533965)
11-04-2009 3:02 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the How do I deal with a creationist family member? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 3 of 86 (533972)
11-04-2009 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
11-04-2009 1:12 AM


I'm not really qualified to give any advice, I'm afraid.
All I would ask is that you keep us regularly updated with your discussions.
Hilarious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by hooah212002, posted 11-04-2009 1:12 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by hooah212002, posted 11-04-2009 5:25 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 4 of 86 (533974)
11-04-2009 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
11-04-2009 5:20 AM


We try to not have them often due to the fact that, well, they don't do any good. What should be a civil discussion turns into a horrific mess because one of the involved parties sees compromise as a one way street. i.e.: you compromise with ME.
Edited by hooah212002, : stupid sig

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 4942 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 5 of 86 (533976)
11-04-2009 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by hooah212002
11-04-2009 5:25 AM


I sympathise. I've been in similar situations, though not over this particular subject matter.
It's hard to give any specific advice, but I suppose some kind of very subtle, indirect strategy has to be the way. And I guess it's going to be a long-term strategy too. Maybe show your girlfriend how to appreciate 2 sides of an argument on a far less sensitive subject, and gradually build on that so she opens up her opinion on other things.

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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 6 of 86 (533980)
11-04-2009 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by hooah212002
11-04-2009 5:25 AM


Hooah,
I have the same problem with a family member, my brother. Unfortunately, there usually is no compromise or negotiating with these type of people when it comes to their religious faith. It really is not worth strain an already strained relation in order to win an argument.
I have gotten in several arguments with him both about religion and science over the past several years and gradually realized that the best remedy is to stay away from those topics and focus on your similarities. Super religious zealots, like my brother, rarely ever back down, admit their wrong or loose any ground as far as their religious or their Creationist faith.
Sometimes it is better just to try to keep the peace in a family relationship in order to salvage and maintain that relationship and keep it from disolving into the typical Hatfield-McCoy family feud.
Just my thoughts.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 7 of 86 (533989)
11-04-2009 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
11-04-2009 1:12 AM


My question is this: how can I talk to her and show her, not that she is wrong, but, to be more accepting of different viewpoints.
Different people have different personalities and require different approaches. Some are more willing to concede they are in the wrong than others. However, when it comes to religion, "being accepting of different viewpoints" equivocates to being a watered-down Christian, Muslim or fill-in-the blank relious person. Therefore they will resist being accepting of other religious beliefs because it is built into their religious dogma to be intollerant of other religious beliefs as a religious survival mechanism.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by hooah212002, posted 11-04-2009 1:12 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 86 (534017)
11-04-2009 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
11-04-2009 1:12 AM


how can I talk to her and show her, not that she is wrong, but, to be more accepting of different viewpoints.
Judging by your post you basically want to proselytize her with atheism probably the same way she is intending on proselytizing you with her brand of Christianity.
I honestly don't see the relationship working because that area is very sensitive.
You should also not look at it admirably like you're trying to rescue her from her own ignorance.
If it comes up, I would suggest calmly stating that you're not so sure this is a good topic of discussion given how different your belief systems are. If she is receptive to hear what you want to say, try to avoid a lot of emotion and be sure to be thoughtful.
I realize that for you religion may be the enemy, but it would be better if you viewed her more as a victim than a combatant. Be respectful and remember that Jesus is very real to many people. You have no idea what kind of psychological damage it does to people in the form cognitive dissonance when they come to find out much of it is fabricated. Be respectful and sympathetic/empathetic.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by hooah212002, posted 11-04-2009 1:12 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Aware Wolf
Member (Idle past 1420 days)
Posts: 156
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 02-13-2009


Message 9 of 86 (534018)
11-04-2009 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by DevilsAdvocate
11-04-2009 6:25 AM


Me, too
I'm in a similar situation with my wife, and to avoid conflict we use the tried and true method of not bringing it up. That "works", but isn't particularly satisfactory. We both feel like: "If our relationship were as good as we'd like it to be, we should be able to talk about anything." However, any discussion about religion lasting more than 5 minutes leaves one or the other or both of us feeling crummy. Like our points are not being heard by the other party. Add in the complication of hell: that is, she thinks I'm headed there, which is a painful thought for her, and I feel guilty for "causing" her that pain.
Well, I don't have any solution; just wanted to jump into the self-pity party.
Edited by Aware Wolf, : Spelling. One day I shall post a post that needs no edit, I swear!

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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 10 of 86 (534020)
11-04-2009 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
11-04-2009 1:12 AM


note: she is italian/german and fits the prototypical sterotype i.e.: she is quite the opposite of passive
Is this an indication that this is how she normally communicates? Does she often explode like this?
If so her reaction could be merely her method of communicating.
I told her I had no qualms about it.
You seem like a pretty laid back guy, sometimes this can infuriate people who aren't.
How would she react if you took the wind out of her sails by being even more laid back by saying "yeah, I guess I am an occultist"?
It really does take 2 people to argue so if you experimented with not pointing out how her views may not be strictly rational and not entering into a debate you may remove the oxygen from the flames (so to speak).
My question is this: how can I talk to her and show her, not that she is wrong, but, to be more accepting of different viewpoints.
I would suggest trying this is opening a can of worms that you should avoid. If however you do want to make changes into how she relates to the world you can only do that by changing how you relate to her.
First come up with as comprehensive a list as you can detailing how you react in situations revolving around creationist issues.
Then design a hierarchy from that list from smallest to largest change in how you react to her. Over the course of several weeks or months go up the list (starting with the smallest change) changing how you react to her and record how that effects her reactions to your lack of belief.
Come up with a rating for your partner on a scale of one to ten for how tolerant she is of other peoples point of view. If she reacts in a relatively positive way (moving up the scale) you know your changes in how you react to her are on the right track.
Only make very incremental behavioural changes in yourself (to affect her) or it won't work and she will dig her heels in.
This does take time but it can work (although it with never completely eradicates the problem) if you take it very small steps.
Hope this helps.

This message is a reply to:
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Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 11 of 86 (534024)
11-04-2009 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Hyroglyphx
11-04-2009 11:59 AM


It doesn't sound to me that he's trying to proselytize her, it sounds like he's more concerned about his child, and that she won't let him have any influence over the child. I'm sure, in other circumstances, they could leave the topic aside, or part ways, but with a child, the situation becomes more tangled.

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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 86 (534042)
11-04-2009 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Perdition
11-04-2009 12:52 PM


It doesn't sound to me that he's trying to proselytize her, it sounds like he's more concerned about his child, and that she won't let him have any influence over the child. I'm sure, in other circumstances, they could leave the topic aside, or part ways, but with a child, the situation becomes more tangled.
Fair enough, but now put yourself in her shoes. She could easily be concerned that he's influencing his kid towards Satan's manipulation. Doesn't mean she is justified in actuality, but that may be how she perceives it.

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(4)
Message 13 of 86 (534044)
11-04-2009 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by hooah212002
11-04-2009 1:12 AM


Hi hooah,
hooah writes:
My question is this: how can I talk to her and show her, not that she is wrong, but, to be more accepting of different viewpoints.
You probably can't.
Sorry to see you have this problem but it is one I have to deal with on a regular basis.
I will assume she was raised Catholic.
The Catholic motto is you give us a child until he/she is 6 years old and they will die a Catholic. From my experience 80% will.
If she does not practice her religion, what is the problem?
She just believes that if the child dies without being baptized he will go to Hell. Which she can't stand the thought of. The same goes for you.
I will assume you and your girlfriend are in your late 20's or 30's. That means you both are well set in your ways and beliefs and there will probably be no compromise in beliefs. She has apparently already drawn the lines in the sand and when you cross those lines there will be trouble.
So basically your problem is, how much do you love this woman and your children?
You must decide your own course in life. Sometimes it is very hard.
I have a couple in the church I pastor that had just such a problem. She is the church treasurer and he does not believe in God. They have raised a son who is now 22 years old. He was allowed to make his own choices concerning religion.
The lady is one of the most faithful members of the church but she never comes on Sunday night unless we are having something special. Sunday evening is spent with her husband. She does not fuss about that and he does not fuss about her coming on Sunday morning and Wednesday evening. Sometimes when we have dinner at the church he will come and eat with us, even though it make him a little uncomfortable.
They have decided since they love each other so much that this is the best and only way to share that love. She has accepted the fact that he will never believe in God so she will share her love with him as long as possible here on earth.
Everything we do is based on a decision we make. You just have to decide what you want and then work toward that end.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by hooah212002, posted 11-04-2009 1:12 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 14 of 86 (534063)
11-04-2009 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Hyroglyphx
11-04-2009 11:59 AM


And judging by your avatar, you're a Nazi.
Did you read anything I wrote? i thought I did a pretty decent job of stating how I am willing to compromise. Did you not see where I typed this:
hooah212002 writes:
Now, as I said, I have no qualms with her showing and sharing her views with the kids. Diversity is good. however, when I said that i would show and teach them "my" way, she flipped and told me she won't allow me to "poison" them.
What I was trying to say was that I would also show them my views, not indoctrinate anyone. I believe they should have the option to choose.

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 15 of 86 (534067)
11-04-2009 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ICANT
11-04-2009 2:51 PM


Wow, ICANT, spot on with almost everything.
I will assume she was raised Catholic.
You got it.
If she does not practice her religion, what is the problem?
My problem is that, to me, she is forcing her views on the kids without respect for mine. The discussion started with her "request" for her friend, whom I have only met once, to be their godmother.
She just believes that if the child dies without being baptized he will go to Hell. Which she can't stand the thought of. The same goes for you.
That is fine, and I have no problem with that viewpoint of it. My problem is the way it comes across as though I am some evil son of a bitch.
I will assume you and your girlfriend are in your late 20's or 30's. That means you both are well set in your ways and beliefs and there will probably be no compromise in beliefs. She has apparently already drawn the lines in the sand and when you cross those lines there will be trouble.
She is 29 and I am 27. Spot on again.
So basically your problem is, how much do you love this woman and your children?
You must decide your own course in life. Sometimes it is very hard.
Again, it's either I compromise with her, or else? Why are the religious that way? Is god that much of a prick? I am fairly certain Jesus would understand......
The lady is one of the most faithful members of the church but she never comes on Sunday night unless we are having something special. Sunday evening is spent with her husband. She does not fuss about that and he does not fuss about her coming on Sunday morning and Wednesday evening. Sometimes when we have dinner at the church he will come and eat with us, even though it make him a little uncomfortable.
They have decided since they love each other so much that this is the best and only way to share that love. She has accepted the fact that he will never believe in God so she will share her love with him as long as possible here on earth.
Again, that is a compromise I, repeat, I, am willing to make. She can take the kids to church all she wants. Just don't chastize me for teaching them science-y stuff.

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan

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