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Author Topic:   The Psychology Behind the Belief in Heaven and Hell
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 1 of 410 (530994)
10-15-2009 5:54 PM


I am not sure if this topic has been discussed yet or not but I would like to investigate the rational many Christians and other religious people have in justifying a certain religious belief. This religious belief entails their willingness to accept the reward by God of going to eternal bliss in heaven for eternity while at the same time accepting the fate of even their closest friends and family members spending eternity in everlasting torment, torture and excruciating pain and agony forever which makes the holocaust and any other man-made atrocity a mere slap on the wrist compared to this appalling set of conditions.
I myself am troubled by a religious person's acceptance of this atrocious contracted arrangement by their so-called deity. This is not necessarily limited to the Christian community. However, they are the ones who I have seen that have capitalized on this the most.
I would like to watch both sides of this debate to see how religious people can justify these actions and statements and see if my above statements have merit or are totally off mark.
Just to be clear that Christianity does focus around the concepts of heaven and hell here are a few excerpt from the Bible which confirm the Christian's belief that those who do not accept God will be thrown into hell for eternity:
Matthew 13 writes:
As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear....Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. Then it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mark 9:47-48 writes:
It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' Everyone will be salted with fire.
Luke 16:24-26 writes:
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Revelations 14:10 writes:
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelations 20:14-15 writes:
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Perdition, posted 10-16-2009 1:00 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied
 Message 7 by iano, posted 10-16-2009 6:19 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 19 by dwise1, posted 10-17-2009 3:20 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 85 by jaywill, posted 10-20-2009 2:13 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 403 by Hawkins, posted 12-08-2009 4:53 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
AdminPD
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Message 2 of 410 (531035)
10-15-2009 8:40 PM


Do you want this in Faith and Belief or do you have another preference?
AdminPD

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 3 of 410 (531090)
10-16-2009 5:14 AM


I am not really sure. I would like my thread to be centered around the religious justification for believing in heaven and hell and how religious people can rationalize this belief while at the same time believing God is good and that they are good knowing many of their friend and family will be spending eternity in excruciating pain and misery that words cannot describe. In other words I believe it to be a moral dilemna and I would like some discussion pro and con for the justification of this belief. I just do not want this to degenerate into a preaching post for the super zealots to proselytize.
So I guess the answer is yes, put into the Faith and Belief forum as opposed to Bible Study forum. Thanks!
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 4 of 410 (531092)
10-16-2009 5:19 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the The Psychology Behind the Belief in Heaven and Hell thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5241 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 5 of 410 (531190)
10-16-2009 12:58 PM


The psychology behind the concept of hell seems pretty simple. Religions are man-made instruments of social control. Obey the rules, or else you will wish you'd never been born.
Quite how anyone can fall for this sadistic nonsense, goodness only knows.

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 6 of 410 (531192)
10-16-2009 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate
10-15-2009 5:54 PM


Not being a believer in both, I can see a sort of out clause. For one thing, if God, heaven and hell do happen to exist, then Christians are merely doing what is necessary to ensure they make it to the good option, rather than the bad. Most Christians I've been around will also be more than willing to help you do the same...sometimes whether you want them to or not. It's sort of on the same par with believing AIDS exists and taking precautions to prevent contracting it.
As for believing a god who would make a hell is a "good" God, well I'm not to sure how to wriggle out of that one. Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles contains a book called "Memnoch The Devil" where it shows the Devil explaining how Heaven and Hell work. It's quite a bit different from the way most Christians portray it, and you have to consider the source (the devil, filtered through a vain vampire...) but if I were to suddenly believe in an afterlife with both a heaven and a hell, this would be the way I'd want it to be.
The way it's described is Hell is merely the place people go who believe they aren't ready to accept paradise. They expereince the punishment and torment they think they deserve, and when they're ready, they are accepted into Heaven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 10-15-2009 5:54 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 10-16-2009 6:39 PM Perdition has seen this message but not replied
 Message 12 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 10-16-2009 7:32 PM Perdition has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 7 of 410 (531269)
10-16-2009 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate
10-15-2009 5:54 PM


You do it to yourself you do - and that's what really hurts
DA writes:
I would like to investigate the rational many Christians ... have in justifying a certain religious belief.
The rationale for justifying any of my beliefs stems from an overarching belief that the Bible is the word of God. Once I've accepted that, there isn't much need to justify any specific belief arising from that overarching acceptance: God says it's so - who am I to argue with God?
So the question might turn to God's rational/justification for Hell.
-
This religious belief entails their willingness to accept the reward by God of going to eternal bliss in heaven for eternity
If wanting the Christian viewpoint as frequently expounded by most on this site the the word isn't reward. The word is gift.
-
.. while at the same time accepting the fate of even their closest friends and family members spending eternity in everlasting torment, torture and excruciating pain and agony forever which makes the holocaust and any other man-made atrocity a mere slap on the wrist compared to this appalling set of conditions.
Fate of wouldn't be quite the words either. Decision of would be a better fit. That is to say: it is the expressed will of a person that refuses that which would save them, which is, in effect, a choice for Hell.
I'd agree that Hell would be as appalling as appalling could be.
-
I myself am troubled by a religious person's acceptance of this atrocious contracted arrangement by their so-called deity. This is not necessarily limited to the Christian community. However, they are the ones who I have seen that have capitalized on this the most.
I would like to watch both sides of this debate to see how religious people can justify these actions and statements and see if my above statements have merit or are totally off mark.
Distilling things down we see that the 'justification' for people ending up in Hell centres on their choosing to end up there. Assuming this an accurate summation (leaving aside the technicalities of how someone, an atheist for example, might choose for something they don't consciously believe in), I don't see much room for objection.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 10-15-2009 5:54 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Perdition, posted 10-16-2009 6:28 PM iano has replied
 Message 15 by Blzebub, posted 10-17-2009 1:35 PM iano has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 8 of 410 (531271)
10-16-2009 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by iano
10-16-2009 6:19 PM


Re: You do it to yourself you do - and that's what really hurts
Distilling things down we see that the 'justification' for people ending up in Hell centres on their choosing to end up there. Assuming this an accurate summation (leaving aside the technicalities of how someone, an atheist for example, might choose for something they don't consciously believe in), I don't see much room for objection.
This type of reasoning seems akin to two people lost and walking through the forest. One decides to walk north, and ends up in a village where they have food, a place to sleep and the company of other people. The other person decides to walk south, and ends up falling into a pit and dying. Even though the second person didn't know the pit was there, the decision to walk into it was his and his alone. I can see that, but I have one issue:
The villagers that the first person walked among were the ones that dug the pit, knowing that people would have to make the choice to walk north or south. They created the bad circumstances that the second person walked into when they didn't have to, and are still expecting to be considered "good." To me, the good option would be to let the second person just keep walking, rather than digging a pit for him to fall into. It seems like overkill, I guess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by iano, posted 10-16-2009 6:19 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by iano, posted 10-16-2009 6:56 PM Perdition has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 9 of 410 (531275)
10-16-2009 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Perdition
10-16-2009 1:00 PM


I suspect that most Christians do not truely believe in Hell
Thanks for your response Perdition and Blzebub,
I concur that many Christians seem to make the concept of heaven and hell for granted and event almost as an afterthought. It seems that many of these religious people really don't think through the seriousness of the concept of heaven and hell. Here is what I think is happening:
a. The majority of Christians really do not believe that hell exists. Also they may compartmentalize the belief in hell so much that choose to deliberately ignore that it exists, which essentially means they do not believe it exists in all intensive purposes.
b. Many Christians only believe the worst offenders are going to hell.
c. Some Christians do not care that the majority of the human race is going to hell. Honestly, I think very few people really think this way unless they are truely self-centered people.
d. Very, very few Christians believe that hell truely exists and do care that the majority of the human race is going to hell and are doing everything in their power to save as many people as possible.
Honestly, I think most religious people fall into the first two categories even though the Bible itself clearly indicates only option D is the correct answer. In fact I would speculate that fewer than 1% of Christians are in the D category, otherwise you would have hundreds of people every day pleading with you to be saved from the everlasting, burning fires of hell and doing literally EVERYTHING in their power to pull you from such an aweful horendous existance. Of course this clearly does not happen so I suspect 99% of Christians fall into categories A and B.
I was a Christian for over 30 years of my life in some of the most fundamentalist churches in Christiandom and even proselytized on a daily basis. Still, I saw that even in these Churches probably about 5-10% who really proselytized to the extant any reasonable person would expect if they were trying to save as many people from eternal torment in hell.
Like I stated earlier, there are though some very few serious fire and brimstone Christians who seem to realize the ramifications of accepting this supposed "reality" of heaven and hell and spend every waking minute reminding everyone of those around them of the danger of the fires of hell, like you said "sometimes whether they like it or not". However, from my own experiences the majority of Christians almost act like hell does not exist.
Again I would like some discussion from all sides of this issue including those fire and brimstone Christians.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Perdition, posted 10-16-2009 1:00 PM Perdition has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Izanagi, posted 10-17-2009 3:29 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 10 of 410 (531278)
10-16-2009 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Perdition
10-16-2009 6:28 PM


Re: You do it to yourself you do - and that's what really hurts
Perdition writes:
This type of reasoning seems akin..
It might help divert you from this view if I were to highlight something said.
iano a minute ago writes:
That is to say: it is the expressed will of a person that refuses that which would save them, which is, in effect, a choice for Hell.
..and point out that their wilful refusal isn't comparable to someone unknowingly taking a particular course at the toss of a coin.
The person who ends up in Hell did what they knew to be wrong..by suppressing the knowledge they had told them what they were about to do was wrong. Then they suppressed the guilt and shame that follows wrong doing. And they persisted along in that pattern their whole life through.
The only significant difference between them and those 'in heaven' is that those 'in heaven' didn't carry out suppression 'til the bitter end. They did wrong of course, they suppressed knowledge, they suppressed guilt and shame. But not 'til the bitter end. And because they didn't, they became convinced about the pickle they were in. And turned to God to resolve it for them. They turned to God because God has designed it that those who don't wilfully reject him to the bitter end will find him.
What sits at centre of things isn't the horror of heaven or the bliss of heaven - such things are a consequence of what sits at the centre of things. What sits at the centre of things is:
"what does your heart love: truth and light or lie and evil".
Once that question is answered with finality, your relationship with God is established (or not, as the case might be). One could say of Hell that it is all about darkness and evil and lies - but without the benefit of the light which makes dark deeds so 'pleasurable'. It is a godless place.
Let's face it: the pleasure of sin and darkness involves spitting in the face of goodness and light. Without light around there is no pleasure from sin. Ask any end-of-the-line addict.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Perdition, posted 10-16-2009 6:28 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 10-16-2009 7:05 PM iano has replied
 Message 13 by Perdition, posted 10-17-2009 10:23 AM iano has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 11 of 410 (531279)
10-16-2009 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by iano
10-16-2009 6:56 PM


Re: Hell is Overkill
And why exactly did God create hell in the first place? And secondly why did God determine this was a good place to send those who supposedly "rejected" Him?
I agree with Perdition in this seems to be overkill, no pun intended.
Please Iano do not give me the circular reasoning that it is because God is good and we should not question God. Even the belief in God has to abide by the rules of logic.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by iano, posted 10-16-2009 6:56 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by iano, posted 10-17-2009 3:04 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 10-19-2009 8:44 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 12 of 410 (531282)
10-16-2009 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Perdition
10-16-2009 1:00 PM


What Dreams May Come
Perdition writes:
The way it's described is Hell is merely the place people go who believe they aren't ready to accept paradise. They expereince the punishment and torment they think they deserve, and when they're ready, they are accepted into Heaven.
As well as the Catholic concept of purgatory, this concept you describe reminds me of the movie "What Dreams May Come" with Robin Williams and Cuba Gooding Jr. in which Dr. Chris Nielson's (Robin Williams) two children die in a car accident and go to heaven, he and his wife seperate due to the emotional burdern and to top it off his wife later commits suicide and goes to a hell of her own making. Eventually he passes away and meets his children in "heaven" (though he does not yet realize they are his children) and then take a trek to the "hell" his wife has created to bring her back and live in eternal bliss as a family.
In reality some people on this planet have and currently do live in a hell worse than death i.e. abused and molested children and adults, sex slaves, holocaust victims and survivers, etc, etc, etc.
I find it absolutely horrendous that some religious people can accept believing in a "good" God that has created these conditions much less the supposed hell of the afterlife.
Albert (his son Ian) in 'What Dreams May Come' writes:
Everybody's Hell is different. It's not all fire and pain. The real Hell is your life gone wrong.
Shakespeare writes:
To die, to sleep --
To sleep, perchance to dream, ay there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause; there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Perdition, posted 10-16-2009 1:00 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Perdition, posted 10-17-2009 10:26 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(1)
Message 13 of 410 (531363)
10-17-2009 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by iano
10-16-2009 6:56 PM


Re: You do it to yourself you do - and that's what really hurts
The person who ends up in Hell did what they knew to be wrong..by suppressing the knowledge they had told them what they were about to do was wrong. Then they suppressed the guilt and shame that follows wrong doing. And they persisted along in that pattern their whole life through.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean by doing wrong, not going to church or not believing, then you have a severe case of projection here. I don't feel guilty for not believing because I have been given no real reason to believe. I don't think it's wrong to not believe in something for which there is no evidence, and quite a bit of evidence the other way.
If you mean people who actually do wrong, ie. robbing, murdering, abusing, etc, then you seem to imply that people who are good people will go to heaven whether they are Christian or not. If that's the case, then I guess you could have a rational belief in Hell and a good God who created it, though I would have to believe that what someone does in life is never bad enough to deserve an eternity of pain and suffering, but maybe that's just me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by iano, posted 10-16-2009 6:56 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by iano, posted 10-17-2009 2:54 PM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 14 of 410 (531364)
10-17-2009 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by DevilsAdvocate
10-16-2009 7:32 PM


Re: What Dreams May Come
"What Dreams May Come"
Good movie!
Though, if I had to pick an afterlife from a movie, "Defending Your Life" is to my mind, just about perfect. It's non-denominational and has a logical set-up that sort of combines all the major beliefs regarding death and an afterlife, including reincarnation, higher planes, and court-like judgements based on the life you've lived.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 10-16-2009 7:32 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5241 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 15 of 410 (531382)
10-17-2009 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by iano
10-16-2009 6:19 PM


Re: You do it to yourself you do - and that's what really hurts
The rationale for justifying any of my beliefs stems from an overarching belief that the Bible is the word of God. Once I've accepted that, there isn't much need to justify any specific belief arising from that overarching acceptance: God says it's so - who am I to argue with God?
That's all very well, but the question is: which parts of it are "the word of god"? The reason why I ask is that there are many parts of the bible which directly contradict one another, and there is some extremely strange (and sometimes downright dangerous) advice in there, if you examine the whole document.
It seems to me that it's impossible to believe the entire thing, as you would have to simultaneously believe two, and sometimes even three or four different versions of the same story.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by iano, posted 10-16-2009 6:19 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by iano, posted 10-17-2009 2:33 PM Blzebub has not replied

  
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