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Author Topic:   The omniscience of god?
Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5241 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 1 of 70 (530443)
10-13-2009 2:03 PM


Proverbs 15:3 (King James Version): The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.
Jeremiah 23:24-25 (King James Version): Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
OK, so that seems quite clear: god is everywhere, he sees everything, and nothing is hidden from god. (Well, what would you expect, given that he's almighty, and all that? A biblical CCTV system should have been a piece of cake.)
But apparently, there's a few glitches:
Exodus 12:13 (King James Version): And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
The Israelites have to mark their houses with blood in order for God to see which houses they occupy and "pass over" them, whilst he's doing a bit of light genocide. You'd think he'd know which people were which!
Also:
1 Samuel 8:21-22 (King James Version): And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD.
And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.
Samuel has to tell god what people have been saying.
Also:
Genesis 4:9 (King James Version): And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
God doesn't know where Abel is, and has to ask. He gets a cheeky response from Cain.
Quite apart from the obvious contradiction between being all-powerful, and all-knowing, the all-knowing part seems a bit shaky at times.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by ICANT, posted 10-14-2009 1:29 PM Blzebub has replied
 Message 5 by Modulous, posted 10-14-2009 4:48 PM Blzebub has not replied
 Message 61 by jaywill, posted 10-21-2009 10:01 AM Blzebub has replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 70 (530664)
10-14-2009 12:46 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the The omniscience of god? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 3 of 70 (530675)
10-14-2009 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Blzebub
10-13-2009 2:03 PM


a few glitches
Hi Blzebub,
Blzebub writes:
The Israelites have to mark their houses with blood in order for God to see which houses they occupy and "pass over" them, whilst he's doing a bit of light genocide. You'd think he'd know which people were which!
They have to obey for the death angel to pass over. Had they refused to obey the firstborn would have died.
It has nothing to do with what God knew or did not know.
Blzebub writes:
Samuel has to tell god what people have been saying.
It doesn't say anywhere that God did not know that they wanted to be like the rest of the world and have a king. Only that Samuel talked to God on behalf of the people requesting that He allow them to have a king.
So God told Samuel to comply and the people chose a king, Saul.
God chose a different king for them, David.
Blzebub writes:
God doesn't know where Abel is, and has to ask. He gets a cheeky response from Cain.
Well lets see the blood of Abel had cried out from the ground so God knew what had happened.
God did give Cain a chance to come clean and confess but he didn't.
You can do better than that can't you?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Blzebub, posted 10-13-2009 2:03 PM Blzebub has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Blzebub, posted 10-14-2009 4:24 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 6 by jaywill, posted 10-14-2009 6:25 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5241 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 4 of 70 (530729)
10-14-2009 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ICANT
10-14-2009 1:29 PM


Re: a few glitches
They have to obey for the death angel to pass over. Had they refused to obey the firstborn would have died.
Golly. This seems like a rather convoluted way of going about one's genocide! Still, rules are rules, eh?
It doesn't say anywhere that God did not know that they wanted to be like the rest of the world and have a king. Only that Samuel talked to God on behalf of the people requesting that He allow them to have a king.
It's implied in the text. If god already knew what was going on, why not cut to the chase, and give the instructions? No need for Samuel to say anything at all.
Well lets see the blood of Abel had cried out from the ground so God knew what had happened. God did give Cain a chance to come clean and confess but he didn't.
So god plays silly mind games? But hang on... god's omniscience would mean that god would already know in advance that Cain wouldn't confess. So the whole exchange seems a bit pointless.
You can do better than that can't you?
Do I need to?
Regards,
Edited by Blzebub, : No reason given.
Edited by Blzebub, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ICANT, posted 10-14-2009 1:29 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jaywill, posted 10-18-2009 4:48 PM Blzebub has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 5 of 70 (530735)
10-14-2009 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Blzebub
10-13-2009 2:03 PM


The Israelites have to mark their houses with blood in order for God to see which houses they occupy and "pass over" them, whilst he's doing a bit of light genocide. You'd think he'd know which people were which!
That was what I thought when I read that bit recently. It is even strange when you look back a few plagues to say Exodus 9:
quote:
Exd 9:4 {NIV} But the Lord will make a distinction between the livestock of Israel and that of Egypt, so that no animal belonging to the Israelites will die.' "
So YHWH can tell who owns what cow - but not whether a person is an Israelite or not? It doesn't make sense.
Unless, of course, it was a retrodicted explanation for pre-existing somewhat mysterious traditions
The early god of the bible often seems to be less than omnipresent. He seems to have a finite presence in clouds or tabernacles or the like and limited knowledge but with ultimate wisdom (further back than Cain and Abel...Adam hid from God). It is the later works that move him from a superman to a amorphous all knowing super big brother.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Blzebub, posted 10-13-2009 2:03 PM Blzebub has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 6 of 70 (530750)
10-14-2009 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ICANT
10-14-2009 1:29 PM


Re: a few glitches
Well lets see the blood of Abel had cried out from the ground so God knew what had happened.
God did give Cain a chance to come clean and confess but he didn't.
Your understanding is much more reasonable in light of the whole revelation of the Bible. And it reminds me of what God says in Hosea 11:4.
"I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love ..." (Hosea 11:4)
The footnote of the Recovery Version on verse 4 says:
"The phrase with cords of a man, with bands of love indicates that God loves us with His divine love not on the level of divinity but on the level of humanity. God's love is divine, but it reaches us in the cords of man, i.e., through Christ's humanity. The cords through which God draws us include Christ's incarnation, human living, crucifixion,resurrection, and ascension. It is by all these steps of Christ in His humanity that God's love in His salvation reaches us (Rom. 5:8; 1 John 4:9-10). Apart from Christ, God's everlasting love, His unchanging, subduing love, could not be prevailing in relation to us. God's unchanging love is prevailing because it is a love in Christ, with Christ, by Christ, and for Christ."
The human like attributes displayed a number of times by God in the Old Testament are previews of the incarnation of God as a Savior Man in Jesus. The examples include His tender love but also do not neglect His judicial righteousness.
God coming to have a friendly lunch with Abraham and also righteously warning the prophet about the justice to descend on Sodom is a good example (Gen. 18,19).
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ICANT, posted 10-14-2009 1:29 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Blzebub, posted 10-14-2009 6:40 PM jaywill has replied

  
Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5241 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 7 of 70 (530758)
10-14-2009 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jaywill
10-14-2009 6:25 PM


Re: a few glitches
Apart from Christ, God's everlasting love, His unchanging, subduing love, could not be prevailing in relation to us. God's unchanging love is prevailing because it is a love in Christ, with Christ, by Christ, and for Christ.
Is this happy-clappy, lovey-dovey god the same god who allegedly sent a, "death angel" to do nasty things to the Egyptians? If so, is he some sort of psychopath? "Subduing" is an adjective rarely associated with "love", except in an abusive, wife-beating sense.
Rather than try to reconcile the innumerable and often ridiculous contradictions in the bible, wouldn't it be easier to accept that different parts of it were written by different people who had different ideas from one another at different times?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jaywill, posted 10-14-2009 6:25 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by jaywill, posted 10-14-2009 7:37 PM Blzebub has replied
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 10-19-2009 8:13 AM Blzebub has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 8 of 70 (530770)
10-14-2009 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Blzebub
10-14-2009 6:40 PM


Re: a few glitches
Is this happy-clappy, lovey-dovey god the same god who allegedly sent a, "death angel" to do nasty things to the Egyptians?
Here I am in a relatively good mood and you're pulling my chain already. Sigh.
Okay. If you recall the Egyptians had killed the firstborn Hebrew kids in spades earlier in the book. If you recall this slaying of the firstborn was after 9 lesser warning plagues that Yahweh was not playing around about wanting His people to be let go.
And since they left Egypt "a mixed multitude" it seems God had mercy on quite a few believing Egyptians in the Exodus.
It should be obvious that "lovey dovey" is not going on there because God is taking some judgmental acts upon Egypt. But you see I am the kind of person who reads the entire Bible and not just lifts up a passage here and there. All things considered there is no doubt in my mind that He loved the Egyptians and Assyrians also who were both traditional enemies of Israel. And in one place He makes it clear to Israel that they also are His people:
"In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrians will come to Egypt, and the Egyptians to Assyria, and the Egyptians will worship with the Assyrians.
In that day Israel will be the third party with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing in the midst of the land.
With which Jehovah of hosts will bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt My people and Assyria the work of My hands and Israel My inheritance." (Isaiah 19:23-25)
I have graduated from viewing the whole character of God through the selective examples of skeptics searching for bones to choke on.
If so, is he some sort of psychopath? "Subduing" is an adjective rarely associated with "love", except in an abusive, wife-beating sense.
Bitterness as expressed by folks like you frequently remind me of the proverb - "When a man's ways bring him to ruin his heart rages against the Lord."
I'll just let you rage on.
Rather than try to reconcile the innumerable and often ridiculous contradictions in the bible, wouldn't it be easier to accept that different parts of it were written by different people who had different ideas from one another at different times?
Oh, I have no problem recognizing that in the 66 books of the Bible "different people who had different ideas" were involved in the writing.
But I also recognize the overall Divine Mind orchestrating the progressive unfolding of the revelation of God. So that there are different flavors and styles in the manner of writing is not a problem to me believing the whole plenary revelation of the Bible.
And I didn't take Exodus as the last book in the Bible. I went on to read more. So I think I benefit from an unbiased and well rounded more complete appreciation then the rather warped ragings of the type you are entertained with.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Blzebub, posted 10-14-2009 6:40 PM Blzebub has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by hooah212002, posted 10-14-2009 7:57 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 10 by Blzebub, posted 10-14-2009 8:18 PM jaywill has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 9 of 70 (530777)
10-14-2009 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jaywill
10-14-2009 7:37 PM


Re: a few glitches
If you recall the Egyptians had killed the firstborn Hebrew kids in spades earlier in the book.
Where was that part? I remember the part where god killed the first born Egypytians, but not where Egyptians killed first-born Hebrews.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jaywill, posted 10-14-2009 7:37 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by bluescat48, posted 10-14-2009 10:25 PM hooah212002 has replied
 Message 16 by jaywill, posted 10-15-2009 9:44 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5241 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 10 of 70 (530781)
10-14-2009 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jaywill
10-14-2009 7:37 PM


Re: a few glitches
Bitterness as expressed by folks like you frequently remind me of the proverb - "When a man's ways bring him to ruin his heart rages against the Lord."
I'll just let you rage on.
You've misread my emotion. It's impossible for me to be angry with your imaginary god, just as it's impossible for you to be angry with, say, Father Christmas, or Thor, Zeus, Neptune, Aphrodite, or the Fairies at the Bottom of the Garden.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jaywill, posted 10-14-2009 7:37 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by AdminPD, posted 10-14-2009 8:52 PM Blzebub has replied
 Message 17 by jaywill, posted 10-15-2009 9:53 AM Blzebub has replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 11 of 70 (530788)
10-14-2009 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Blzebub
10-14-2009 8:18 PM


Mind Your Manners
Mind your manners please and stay on the topic of omniscience of God.
Your comments to jaywill were unnecessary and off topic.
Please keep to the subject of the thread.
Thanks
AdminPD

Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Blzebub, posted 10-14-2009 8:18 PM Blzebub has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 15 by AdminPD, posted 10-15-2009 6:27 AM AdminPD has not replied

  
Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5241 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 12 of 70 (530791)
10-14-2009 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by AdminPD
10-14-2009 8:52 PM


Re: Mind Your Manners
Hi there,
I wasn't even slightly rude. I think it's perfectly legitimate to refer to something for which we have no evidence as "imaginary". The bible is full of proclamations from yahweh about how awful it would be to worship "false gods", "icons", "graven images", and the like. No one objects to any of that.
I should imagine that jaywill doesn't believe in any of the ancient gods who were in vogue before yahweh appeared on the scene, and he would no doubt refer to them as "imaginary", "false" or "non-existent".
Like Dawkins, I go one god further than jaywill in my non-belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by AdminPD, posted 10-14-2009 8:52 PM AdminPD has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 13 of 70 (530796)
10-14-2009 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by hooah212002
10-14-2009 7:57 PM


Re: a few glitches
I believe hes is talking about the following
KJV Ex 1 writes:
15 And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:
16 And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
17 But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive
ABE
plus the following verse
22 And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.
Edited by bluescat48, : added verse
Edited by bluescat48, : typo

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by hooah212002, posted 10-14-2009 7:57 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by hooah212002, posted 10-14-2009 11:31 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 14 of 70 (530798)
10-14-2009 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by bluescat48
10-14-2009 10:25 PM


Re: a few glitches
But verse 17 says:
But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive
doesn't that mean they didn't kill them?
this is off topic, so I'll leave it at that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by bluescat48, posted 10-14-2009 10:25 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 15 of 70 (530828)
10-15-2009 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by AdminPD
10-14-2009 8:52 PM


Re: Mind Your Manners
The topic of your thread concerns the omniscience of God. It is not a springboard to comment on other aspects of God you disagree with.
The portion of jaywill's post that you responded to did not deal with omniscience of God. So your post was completely off topic and unnecessary.
You can make your point without being disrespectful to another's belief system.
Per rule #1, follow moderator requests.
As I said, stick to the topic and mind your manners.

Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by AdminPD, posted 10-14-2009 8:52 PM AdminPD has not replied

  
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