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Author Topic:   Murder by prayer: When is enough, enough?
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3123 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 1 of 284 (516684)
07-26-2009 8:31 PM


Reading my sunday paper this morning, a story peaked my interest:
'Murder by prayer' trial, which also can be found here: Prayer death trial
When is enough enough concerning allowing religious parents to kill their children by not seeking adequate medical care for their children. This is not an isolated incodent and by no means is confined to the developed countries of the United States and the like.
However, by no means was this family incapable of finding adequate medical care to save the life of their daughter.
The aunt of the girl called the police three times on Sunday, the day her neice died, and had said this to the 9-11 dispatcher:
"My sister-in-law is, her daughter's severely, severely sick and she believes her daughter is in a coma.And, she's very religious, so she's refusing to take [Kara] to the hospital, so I was hoping maybe somebody could go over there."
Pretty damning evidence of neglect since she had been sick for nearly a month and had not seen a doctor since she got her shots around her 3rd birthday.
Even when the girl lapsed into a coma by the court account the parents chose not to seek medical care for their daughter.
We are not living in the 19th or 18th century. This is the 21st century and their actions and behavior were inexcusible.
The Unleavened Bread Minstries they attend 'shuns modern medicine in favor of prayer' and 'does not believe in the the medical intervention'.
The father also 'professed to believe God was going to bring Madeline back to life.'
I totally agree with the sentance of second degree murder passed down by the court and find it apalling that the parents still do not see that they murdered their own daughter. It is heart wrenching and sickening. And religious fundamentalists wonder why people are leaving the faith br the droves.
Again I ask, when is enough, enough? Where do we draw the line between religious freedom and tolerance and caring for the welfare and well-being fof our children?
Other children who have died in the name of religious freedom and tolerance:
Healing or homicide? The use of prayer to treat sick children by Shawn Doherty in Capital Times, Wisconsin/August 13, 2008 writes:
1901: The clash of religion, law and child welfare begins in America when two children of J. Luther Pierson die after the New York railroad clerk treats their illnesses with prayer. A benchmark ruling finds Pierson guilty of withholding medical care and creates the legal doctrine that parents, whatever their religious beliefs, have a legal duty to provide adequate medical treatment to their children.
1944: In Prince v. Massachusetts, a case involving the Jehovah's Witnesses, the U.S. Supreme Court rules that the First Amendment's guarantee of religious liberty does not give parents blanket authority: "Parents may be free to become martyrs themselves. But it does not follow that they are free, in identical circumstances, to make martyrs of their children ..."
1967: A Massachusetts court convicts Dorothy Sheriden of involuntary manslaughter after she treats her daughter Lisa's pneumonia with prayer. Sheriden's Christian Scientist Church lobbies successfully to change guidelines for federally funded child protection programs to require states to add religious exemptions to statutes concerning child abuse and neglect. Over the next decades, confusion reigns as more than 40 states -- including Wisconsin -- add religious exemptions to laws while other states repeal them.
1980: Natali Joy Mudd, 4, dies in Indiana from a malignant tumor near her eye. Investigators discover smears of blood along the walls of her home where the little girl, blinded by a tumor as big as a second head, leaned and groped her way around. Outrage over this case and nearly three dozen other preventable deaths among children of Faith Assembly church lead to successful criminal prosecutions of parents and ministers, and reform of Indiana's confusing spiritual healing law.
1982: Jessica Lybarger, 5 weeks old, dies of pneumonia in Colorado after her father insists that "God is the best help." John Lybarger is charged with criminal child abuse. The third effort to convict Lybarger ends in a mistrial, hung up on Colorado's spiritual healing exemption. The loophole is later repealed.
1986: Robyn Twitchell, 2, dies in Massachusetts from a bowel obstruction. Neighbors report hearing screams of pain for days, but the boy's Christian Scientist father, David Twitchell, tells a jury his son's suffering was an illusion. "Pain has no right to exist because God did not authorize it," he says during his trial for manslaughter. The state Supreme Court overturns Twitchell's guilty verdict in part because of the state's spiritual healing exemption, which legislators later repeal.
1987: Wisconsin's child abuse laws are amended to include a spiritual healing exemption.
1988: Ashley King, 12, dies in Phoenix of untreated bone cancer. A detective finds the girl in bed with a tumor the size of a watermelon on her leg. The state hospitalizes Ashley against the wishes of her Christian Scientist parents. The stench of her decaying flesh fills the ward, and she dies.
1991: Measles kills five young members of the Faith Tabernacle church in Philadelphia after parents reject conventional treatment and vaccinations. In an effort to contain a bigger outbreak, health authorities force church members to submit to hundreds of at-home visits. The city's district attorney obtains court orders mandating medical treatment for several sick children and vaccinations for others.
1995: Shannon Nixon, 16, dies in Pennsylvania of diabetes, an illness treatable with insulin. "The devil is fighting me hard," the young Faith Tabernacle member says before vomiting, losing consciousness, and falling into a coma. Shannon's parents were on probation for involuntary manslaughter after her brother, Clayton, died of an untreated ear infection. This time, the Nixons are sent to prison for 2 and a half years.
1997: Dean Michael Heilman, 22 months old, cuts his foot in his Philadelphia area backyard. His parents, members of Faith Tabernacle, anoint the child with oil and pray. After vomiting, bleeding, and crying for 19 hours, Michael stops breathing in his mother's arms. The toddler lost nearly half his blood and was a hemophiliac. The Heilmans are each sentenced to 17 years of probation for involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment, fined $2,000, and ordered to attend parenting classes and provide medical care to their two remaining children.
1998: A study of religion-based medical neglect in the journal Pediatrics documents 172 child fatalities over 20 years among 23 religious denominations in 34 states. Faith Assembly in the Midwest leads, with 64 deaths. The Christian Science Church is second, with 28. The study calls the cases the "tip of the iceberg," since many are never reported. The vast majority of these deaths were avoidable.
1998: Bo Philips, 11, dies in Oregon state from diabetes. A detective finds members of the Followers of Christ praying over the dead child, who is underweight and clad in an adult diaper. A local newspaper investigates his case and the deaths of more than 60 other children buried in the Follower's Cemetery since 1955. More than half died before age 1, at least a third died from treatable illnesses, and none of the deaths resulted in charges being filed against parents. Authorities cite exemptions for spiritual healing as one reason why. Oregon reforms the statutes.
2001: Amanda Bates, 13, dies in Colorado from complications of diabetes, including gangrene in her buttocks and genitals. Other parents in their Church of the First Born had been prosecuted for medical neglect, but Amanda's parents nevertheless treat their daughter with only prayer and are convicted of child abuse.
2003: Terrance "Junior" Cotrell, 4, suffocates in Milwaukee's Faith Assembly church during an exorcism. Minister Ray Hemphill attempts to "release the demons" and lays on top of the boy while Junior's mother prevents the boy from moving. When Hemphill gets off Junior two hours later, the minister is drenched with sweat, and the child is dead. Milwaukee County District Attorney E. Michael McCann charges Hemphill with felony child abuse, fearing the more serious charge of murder won't stick because of spiritual healing protections in Wisconsin state law.
2004: Hemphill is sentenced to 30 months in prison and 7 and a half years of probation. He is also temporarily barred from performing exorcisms. Advocates hope the case spurs Wisconsin legislators to reform the spiritual healing exemption to the state's child abuse statute, following the lead of politicians in Massachusetts, Indiana, Colorado, and Oregon. No Wisconsin legislator takes action.
2008: On March 2, Ava Worthington, 15 months old, dies of pneumonia and a blood infection in Oregon state. The baby's parents, who belong to the Followers of Christ Church, chose treatment with prayer and not antibiotics. Carl and Raylene Worthington await trial for manslaughter and criminal mistreatment.
2008: On March 23, Madeline Kara Neumann, 11, dies of diabetes in her home in Weston, Wis. Parents Dale and Leilani Neumann e-mail a Web site called Unleavened Bread Ministries a desperate request for emergency prayers. When Kara stops breathing, her parents believe she will be resurrected. She is not. The Neumanns are scheduled to be arraigned on Aug. 19 on charges of second-degree reckless homicide. Unleavened Bread Ministries is raising money for their defense. Leilani says on the site that the Heavenly Father will champion their case. Local experts say what might save them instead is the faith healing exemption in Wisconsin's child neglect and abuse statutes.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by Admin, : Correct spelling.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 284 (516688)
07-26-2009 9:00 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Murder by prayer: When is enough, enough? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

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 Message 3 by Coyote, posted 07-26-2009 10:35 PM AdminNosy has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 3 of 284 (516694)
07-26-2009 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNosy
07-26-2009 9:00 PM


Re: Murder by prayer
Think of it as evolution in action.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 07-26-2009 9:00 PM AdminNosy has not replied

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


(1)
Message 4 of 284 (516699)
07-26-2009 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coyote
07-26-2009 10:35 PM


Re: Murder by prayer
coyote writes:
Think of it as evolution in action.
That's cold and irrational.
It is cold because children do not deserve to die because of the stupid anti-science religious beliefs of their parents. It is murder, pure and simple.
It is irrational because so called 'deeply religious' nuts, aka pro-disease sociopaths, are a threat to all people when it comes to communicable diseases and it is the absolute right of the state to end their desire to murder all in the name of a false god.
The difference between such religious sociopaths and criminal sociopaths such as Manson's followers or Son of Sam, who also held a mentally ill concept of orders from a false god, is only the difference between a crime of passion and premeditated murder. In other words it should be treated as the difference between second degree murder vs first degree murder and should be up to the courts to determine which of the two is applicable.
Edited by anglagard, : Add followers to Manson as it is Manson who claimed to be god, while it was often (but not exclusively) his followers who murdered in his name.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

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 Message 3 by Coyote, posted 07-26-2009 10:35 PM Coyote has replied

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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4662 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 5 of 284 (516700)
07-26-2009 11:55 PM


Glad stuff like this never happens in Canada (Until it does happen hh)
Ok no seriously, I find even the Jeovah's witness 'no blood transfer' stuff to be too much.
If someone wants to pray for their own disease to heal without going to the hospital, I don't have any problem they'll probably die ... But you can't force that view unto others, especially your own children

  
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 6 of 284 (516704)
07-27-2009 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate
07-26-2009 8:31 PM


I honestly am not sure if they should be with the general prison population. I think they should be in a mental institution. I think the parents honestly believed what they were doing is right and was the best way to save their daughter. They were not intentionally killing her. They simply had such a warped view of reality that they thought this was the best way to care for their daughter was by not seeking modern medicine. It gets even more complicated when you consider that these people do have a sense of right and wrong and have acted in the way they view as right and in accordance with the law(these people honestly believed the best way to save their daughters life was to not seek medical help). I am not even sure how you would reform them other than simply educating them on the successes of modern medicine. Of course, with the amount of "faith" these type of people have, I don't think it would work.
The other question is "how does society handle it?". The only thing I can think of is forcing people who teach that modern medicine is evil to put some sort of disclaimer on their teachings which makes it clear that this is not accepted by any licensed physicians and could put your children at serious risk.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-26-2009 8:31 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2128 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 7 of 284 (516706)
07-27-2009 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by anglagard
07-26-2009 11:43 PM


Re: Murder by prayer
coyote writes:
Think of it as evolution in action.
That's cold and irrational.
It is cold because children do not deserve to die because of the stupid anti-science religious beliefs of their parents. It is murder, pure and simple.
Of course they don't deserve to die!
But evolution has no feelings. Its not "survival of the fittest" but survival of the "barely adequate." And the irrational decisions of these parents have the effect of removing some of their genes from the population. A change in the genome qualifies as evolution in action.
It is irrational because so called 'deeply religious' nuts, aka pro-disease sociopaths, are a threat to all people when it comes to communicable diseases and it is the absolute right of the state to end their desire to murder all in the name of a false god.
I am not sure whether you are considering my comment "evolution in action" as irrational, or the actions of these particular parents. If the latter I certainly agree.
Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can’t help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and the execution is carried out automatically and without pity.
Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973
Unfortunately the children are the innocent victims of the parents' criminal stupidity.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
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anglagard
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 8 of 284 (516709)
07-27-2009 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Coyote
07-27-2009 12:47 AM


Re: Murder by prayer
coyote writes:
Of course they don't deserve to die!
But evolution has no feelings. Its not "survival of the fittest" but survival of the "barely adequate." And the irrational decisions of these parents have the effect of removing some of their genes from the population. A change in the genome qualifies as evolution in action.
I said you comment was cold, not false. Cute quips done in haste have a way of being used to turn around and bite us in the ass.
I am not sure whether you are considering my comment "evolution in action" as irrational, or the actions of these particular parents. If the latter I certainly agree.
Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can’t help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and the execution is carried out automatically and without pity.
Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973
Unfortunately the children are the innocent victims of the parents' criminal stupidity.
One of my points is that such religious fanaticism is not necessarily a personal matter but rather most certainly becomes a societal matter in the case of communicable diseases. It is both irrational to murder by proxy and to condemn such as if, in some cases, it is an act that does not affect others.
Of course, such off-hand lack of consideration for this point in some off-hand quip is by no means equivalent to second degree murder, but I still call irrational, even if meant largely in jest.
Don't sweat it, most of us know you're cool and I really meant to bring up the point that such behavior on the anti-science crowd can be a threat to the public at large (I won't even start on the moral or ethical implications in this response). It was not actually meant as a criticism of your person but rather as a condemnation of such behavior as disgusts both of us, along with any other civilized person.
Edited by anglagard, : mild it out, coyote is after all, an ally
Edited by anglagard, : thesaurus

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4662 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 9 of 284 (516710)
07-27-2009 2:05 AM


You gotta keep in mind that the ratio of 'stupid', or mentally ill, or etc. people ain't different in religious people than anywhere else ...

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Rahvin, posted 07-27-2009 2:29 AM slevesque has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4040
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.2


Message 10 of 284 (516712)
07-27-2009 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by slevesque
07-27-2009 2:05 AM


You gotta keep in mind that the ratio of 'stupid', or mentally ill, or etc. people ain't different in religious people than anywhere else ...
Except these are not instances where there are a few crazies in otherwise perfectly normal congregations. These people belong to denominations that specifically teach that God will heal instead of doctors.
You cannot honestly claim that, when a Jehovah's Witness child dies because his parents refused to let him receive a blood transfusion that this is the result of a single case of crazy within statistical norms. The institution actively promotes the neglect, and even threatens its members (with the threat of Hell, or in the JWs case, shunning by the family's entire social network).

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 Message 9 by slevesque, posted 07-27-2009 2:05 AM slevesque has replied

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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3123 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 11 of 284 (516718)
07-27-2009 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by themasterdebator
07-27-2009 12:13 AM


The father was a police officer. He has no excuse in saying that he thought that medical care would be less effective than religious practices such as prayer. Police in many cases are the first to arrive on a scene and render first aid. He knew better.
This is deliberate ignorance in order to get the emotional high of the religious experience. Nothing more. They should be treated the same way we treat junkies, alcoholics and the like for 'unintentionally' killing there children for the sake of there addiction. That is they should be criminally prosecuted. Addictions, even religious ones, do not give one the right to physically or emotionally abuse ones children, much less kill them.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4662 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 12 of 284 (516720)
07-27-2009 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Rahvin
07-27-2009 2:29 AM


Of course I agree, but I would tend to see it that these 'crazy denominations ' are just the result of stupid leaders, in other words: stupid people are at the top in this case, with a lot of sheep following them.
I totally agree with DevilsAdvocate that these people should be brought to justice as in any other case of second degreee murder. I would also suggest that these denominations be Biblically confronted in their beliefs by intelligent christians hh,e bcause putting a couple in jail won't solve the problem ...
THat or we all convert to what they think, and so if the majority does not view what they did as wrong anymore, then it is no longer wrong.
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2973 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 13 of 284 (517006)
07-28-2009 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by DevilsAdvocate
07-27-2009 5:13 AM


They should be treated the same way we treat junkies, alcoholics and the like for 'unintentionally' killing there children for the sake of there addiction.
Hmm, then would you advocate for making religion illegal (like with crack, meth, herion, etc), or regulated in some way, like is done with alcohol?
Or should people be free to do it as they please and we just punish those who break the law with it?
That is they should be criminally prosecuted.
Seems like it would be hard to define a line between what is considered "child abuse" and not "child abuse."
Is refusing a blood transfusion child abuse?
What about parents who teach their children YEC, tell them that they are born sinners, that they have to ask for forgiveness, that they are being watched by an invisible entity, is that emotional child abuse?
How about Jesus Camp, would you consider that child abuse?
What about the Polygamist, are they exposing their children to things that may emotionally fuck them up?
And, who will be the one to decide all of this? To draw the line between "child abuse" and normal religious practice?
Or, would the best thing to do is just make it illegal?
- Oni

If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little.
~George Carlin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-27-2009 5:13 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2973 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 14 of 284 (517007)
07-28-2009 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by slevesque
07-27-2009 5:19 AM


stupid people are at the top in this case, with a lot of sheep following them.
The same could be said of religion in general, though.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 15 of 284 (517016)
07-28-2009 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Coyote
07-27-2009 12:47 AM


Re: Murder by prayer
Hi Coyote,
But evolution has no feelings. Its not "survival of the fittest" but survival of the "barely adequate." And the irrational decisions of these parents have the effect of removing some of their genes from the population. A change in the genome qualifies as evolution in action.
Yeah, my first impression was that the parents should get a Darwin Award.
However, I am also not convinced that it is in the interest of government to prosecute and punish them.
We certainly have a problem with overpopulation, and most every social ill can trace the effects of overpopulation to aggravating the situations.
We don't prosecute and punish people that have 5, 10 or 20 children, even though this is just as socially irresponsible.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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