Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Genetic vs. Physical comparison of Chimps and Humans
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 19 (272425)
12-24-2005 11:42 AM


DNA so similar to chimps, why are we so different?
{This is message 2 of the "Evolution named 2005's top scientific breakthrough" topic. It is not really on topic there, so I've spun it off as a new topic. - Adminnemooseus}

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Asgara, posted 12-24-2005 11:45 AM joshua221 has replied
 Message 3 by Modulous, posted 12-24-2005 11:51 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 2 of 19 (272426)
12-24-2005 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
12-24-2005 11:42 AM


We seem to be closer in appearance to them than to any other species out there.

Asgara
"I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now"
Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 12-24-2005 11:42 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by joshua221, posted 12-24-2005 11:51 AM Asgara has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 3 of 19 (272430)
12-24-2005 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by joshua221
12-24-2005 11:42 AM


The question can be turned around. The DNA of chimps could be utterly different from humans, why are they so similar?
The point is that of all tested species:
a) They show the greatest physical similarities to humans
b) They show the greatest genetic similarity to humans
And remember, most of the genome is non-coding...if 80% is non-coding then an organism could be pretty much physically identical but share only 20% genetic similarity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by joshua221, posted 12-24-2005 11:42 AM joshua221 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by randman, posted 12-24-2005 12:42 PM Modulous has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 19 (272431)
12-24-2005 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Asgara
12-24-2005 11:45 AM


Are humans just animals? Are we not really special? Are we the only animals to have souls?
This message has been edited by prophex, 12-24-2005 11:52 AM

The old man cries in the sorrow of eternity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Asgara, posted 12-24-2005 11:45 AM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Belfry, posted 12-24-2005 11:57 AM joshua221 has replied
 Message 6 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-24-2005 12:08 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
Belfry
Member (Idle past 5086 days)
Posts: 177
From: Ocala, FL
Joined: 11-05-2005


Message 5 of 19 (272434)
12-24-2005 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by joshua221
12-24-2005 11:51 AM


prophex writes:
Are humans just animals?
We are animals. Not sure what you mean by "just" animals.
prophex writes:
Are we not really special?
That's entirely a matter of opinion. We're pretty remarkable in many ways.
prophex writes:
Are we the only animals to have souls?
That question falls outside of the realm of science. It would be a good one for one of the religious forums. My mother (an Episcopal priest with a PhD in ecology) has pretty strong opinions about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by joshua221, posted 12-24-2005 11:51 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by joshua221, posted 12-24-2005 12:39 PM Belfry has not replied
 Message 11 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-24-2005 12:54 PM Belfry has replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 6 of 19 (272437)
12-24-2005 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by joshua221
12-24-2005 11:51 AM


Topic 15 minutes old and... - Topic drift alert!
I didn't anticipate this topic taking a theological turn.
Unless you want to argue that the "Soul" is of genetic origin, such is off-topic.
Note what title I put on this thing - " Genetic vs. Physical comparison of Chimps and Humans".
Take any response to this message to the "General..." topic, link below.
Adminnemooseus
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-24-2005 12:08 PM

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by joshua221, posted 12-24-2005 11:51 AM joshua221 has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 7 of 19 (272442)
12-24-2005 12:27 PM


argue that "the Soul" is of genetic origin
Humans are the only apes that have this strange confusion of relations to the self and relations to others that makes us strive to see ourself as others see us and make others see us as we see ourselves.
We are also the only apes that have a fully fused chromome 2. What if 2a governs relations to self, and 2b governs relations to others, and those systems being on the same chromosome cause them to interrelate together in a way that they otherwise won't?
Chimpanzee genome project - Wikipedia

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 19 (272449)
12-24-2005 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Belfry
12-24-2005 11:57 AM


quote:
That question falls outside of the realm of science. It would be a good one for one of the religious forums. My mother (an Episcopal priest with a PhD in ecology) has pretty strong opinions about it.
Yeah, what does she think?
quote:
We are animals. Not sure what you mean by "just" animals.
We look at nature and notice these animals moving about, we are very much superior, constucting civilization, in language, etc... We even exterminate them. JUST animals meaning are we part of the same construct as these seemingly meaningless and thoughtless creatures? I think that I am more important to God than the peacock with it's beautiful feathers and elegant style. Humans are of special design, with purpose, and we are in the LIKENESS of God.
But does this mean (back on topic) that chimpanzees look almost like God?
That stuff angers me lol

The old man cries in the sorrow of eternity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Belfry, posted 12-24-2005 11:57 AM Belfry has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-24-2005 12:51 PM joshua221 has not replied
 Message 12 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-24-2005 12:55 PM joshua221 has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 9 of 19 (272450)
12-24-2005 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Modulous
12-24-2005 11:51 AM


Can you show this?
The point is that of all tested species:
a) They show the greatest physical similarities to humans
b) They show the greatest genetic similarity to humans
Can you substantiate that?
I don't know about humans, but I thought evos claim some creatures that appear more similar physically are more different genetically due to convergency. Is that true or not true?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Modulous, posted 12-24-2005 11:51 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Modulous, posted 12-24-2005 1:30 PM randman has replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 10 of 19 (272453)
12-24-2005 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by joshua221
12-24-2005 12:39 PM


Focus on the topic Prophex!
I'll try to get Belfry to start a "Soul" topic.
But does this mean (back on topic) that chimpanzees look almost like God?
Not back on topic. This is a chimp/human comparison topic. The "image of God" stuff belongs elsewhere, probably in some sort of theology topic.
Adminnemooseus

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by joshua221, posted 12-24-2005 12:39 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 11 of 19 (272454)
12-24-2005 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Belfry
12-24-2005 11:57 AM


Hey, submit that "Soul" topic as a new "Proposed New Topic"
That question falls outside of the realm of science. It would be a good one for one of the religious forums. My mother (an Episcopal priest with a PhD in ecology) has pretty strong opinions about it.
My bolds.
Adminnemooseus

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Belfry, posted 12-24-2005 11:57 AM Belfry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Belfry, posted 12-24-2005 3:30 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 12 of 19 (272456)
12-24-2005 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by joshua221
12-24-2005 12:39 PM


But does this mean (back on topic) that chimpanzees look almost like God?
i think in the image of god does not refer to the physical. but this is off-topic.
what you are looking for can't be acquired. we are animals, merely or exceptionally. the idea that animals are less than us and "meaningless" as you called them is an unfortunate by-product of the telling of the creation story. as far as i'm concerned, all god's creatures are the same and deserving of respect.
(note: i have canines for a reason. nothing's off the menu. not even you.)
are we somehow special because of our consciousness? how can we say for certain that other species don't demonstrate consciousness? they can't speak our language, so it's a bit hard.
your understanding of things is based solely on god creating animals by voice and man by 'hand' and placing us in dominion over them. you need to pause and try to think past that for just a minute. don't worry, it won't damn you to hell. just stop and think for a minute. what if god created all animals in te same way making some like each other and some unlike each other so that they could fill specific roles in nature. what if he made rabbits and mice to be furry and cute and tigers and wolves to eat furry cute things and monkeys and apes and people to throw poo (look at politicians and tell me we don't throw poo).
just think about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by joshua221, posted 12-24-2005 12:39 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by joshua221, posted 12-24-2005 1:22 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 19 (272465)
12-24-2005 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by macaroniandcheese
12-24-2005 12:55 PM


k
aiight
quote:
i think in the image of god does not refer to the physical
thanks

The old man cries in the sorrow of eternity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-24-2005 12:55 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 14 of 19 (272467)
12-24-2005 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by randman
12-24-2005 12:42 PM


Re: Can you show this?
Can you substantiate that?
Can I substantiate that of all tested species Chimpanzees are the most similar genetically? I'm sure I can, I didn't think that you would dispute that though.
The same for morphology, while there may be some reasonable dispute as to which ape is most morphologically similar to humans, I think its a fair assesment that apes share the most morphological characteristics.
I don't know about humans, but I thought evos claim some creatures that appear more similar physically are more different genetically due to convergency. Is that true or not true?
The convergency that placental and marsupial mammals experience for example was known before genetics was discovered (IIRC Darwin discussed the Marsupial/Placental split and I'm sure the convergent creatures would be known then or shortly thereafter). Whilst convergency can produce nearly identical solutions, normally they are very different when looked at in more detail..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by randman, posted 12-24-2005 12:42 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by randman, posted 12-24-2005 1:37 PM Modulous has not replied
 Message 16 by NosyNed, posted 12-24-2005 2:07 PM Modulous has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 15 of 19 (272473)
12-24-2005 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Modulous
12-24-2005 1:30 PM


Re: Can you show this?
I misread what you wrote as not just referring to chimps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Modulous, posted 12-24-2005 1:30 PM Modulous has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024