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Author Topic:   New Science Standards in Florida
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3681 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 1 of 24 (456441)
02-18-2008 3:58 AM


A fairly detailed story in the Miami Herald this week describes new science standards that could soon be implemented in Florida schools. The new standards specify, for the first time, that evolution be a required subject of study on which students are tested.
http://www.miamiherald.com/884/story/423070.html
As you might expect, the Discovery Institute is lobbying for changes in the wording to leave room for teaching astrology--I mean, ID.
_____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

Replies to this message:
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Adminnemooseus
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Message 2 of 24 (456444)
02-18-2008 4:24 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2560 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 3 of 24 (456815)
02-20-2008 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archer Opteryx
02-18-2008 3:58 AM


"They've made us the laughingstock of the world".
Apparently, ridicule and satire played a positive role in one dissident county.
From Wiki:
quote:
Polk County, Florida
In December 2007 the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster was credited with being at the forefront of successful efforts in Polk County, Florida to persuade Polk County School Board to withdraw from a potential challenge to new science standards mentioning evolution, raised as an issue after five of its seven members declared a personal belief in the concept of intelligent design. Opponents describing themselves as Pastafarians sent e-mails to Polk school board members, demanding equal time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism. The e-mail was dismissed as ridiculous and insulting by Margaret Lofton, one of the school board members supporting intelligent design, who said "They've made us the laughingstock of the world". The controversy developed, with scientists expressing their opposition to the claims of intelligent design. Hopes for a new applied science-focused campus of the University of South Florida being located in northeast Lakeland were reportedly in question, with university vice president Marshall Goodman expressing surprise and saying of intelligent design that "It's not science. You can't even call it pseudo-science." Lofton stated that she had no interest in engaging with the Pastafarians or anyone else seeking to discredit intelligent design and, while reaffirming her belief that the Bible is inerrant truth and the word of God, stated that she would not resign over the issue. The other board members wanted simply to return to the day-to-day work of running the school district.
Flying Spaghetti Monster - Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Archer Opteryx, posted 02-18-2008 3:58 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3375 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 4 of 24 (456846)
02-20-2008 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by bluegenes
02-20-2008 9:39 AM


Re: "They've made us the laughingstock of the world".
quote:
Lofton stated that she had no interest in engaging with the Pastafarians or anyone else seeking to discredit intelligent design and, while reaffirming her belief that the Bible is inerrant truth and the word of God, stated that she would not resign over the issue.
See, even IDists see no difference between ID and religion. They don't realize that making a statement like this hurts their cause.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 02-20-2008 12:07 PM Taz has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22611
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 5 of 24 (456855)
02-20-2008 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
02-20-2008 11:37 AM


Re: "They've made us the laughingstock of the world".
Taz writes:
See, even IDists see no difference between ID and religion. They don't realize that making a statement like this hurts their cause.
It more than just hurts their cause, it's fatal. The Discovery Institute must cringe in horror as their efforts to portray ID as legitimate science are translated at the grass roots level into claims about God and Bible.
--Percy

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3375 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 6 of 24 (456858)
02-20-2008 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
02-20-2008 12:07 PM


Re: "They've made us the laughingstock of the world".
Percy writes:
It more than just hurts their cause, it's fatal. The Discovery Institute must cringe in horror as their efforts to portray ID as legitimate science are translated at the grass roots level into claims about God and Bible.
This makes me wonder. How come the DI doesn't try harder to tell their followers to stop referring to ID as religion? They've been trying very hard to convince the rest of the country that ID is not religion. Why aren't they asserting the same kind of effort on their supporters?
They don't have to convince their supporters that ID is not religion. All they have to do is quietly pass a note around saying "shhhh... don't let the evil atheists know ID is religion."

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Zucadragon
Member
Posts: 93
From: Netherlands
Joined: 06-28-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 7 of 24 (457215)
02-21-2008 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taz
02-20-2008 12:34 PM


Re: "They've made us the laughingstock of the world".
This makes me wonder. How come the DI doesn't try harder to tell their followers to stop referring to ID as religion? They've been trying very hard to convince the rest of the country that ID is not religion. Why aren't they asserting the same kind of effort on their supporters?
They don't have to convince their supporters that ID is not religion. All they have to do is quietly pass a note around saying "shhhh... don't let the evil atheists know ID is religion."
I think its because they feel an obligation to tell the masses that they are religious in nature, think of the whole "creation science" group, theres a lot of people out there that really think someone is more trustworthy when someone says "god in science". It would be more suspicious to the ton of believers supporting them already if they didn't every now and then talk about it being religious in nature, not scientific.
I think if they really really tried to hard, that no creationist minded group of people would ever think about promoting/supporting the DI, because they don't have a creationist agenda.

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3946
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001


Message 8 of 24 (457245)
02-21-2008 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taz
02-20-2008 12:34 PM


The Discovery Institute position
How come the DI doesn't try harder to tell their followers to stop referring to ID as religion? They've been trying very hard to convince the rest of the country that ID is not religion. Why aren't they asserting the same kind of effort on their supporters?
I think this is a (the?) core point of the ID as Science vs. ID as Creationism topic. Might you care to bring this to there?
Moose

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18388
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 9 of 24 (463012)
04-11-2008 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archer Opteryx
02-18-2008 3:58 AM


Hey Archie
Archer writes:
As you might expect, the Discovery Institute is lobbying for changes in the wording to leave room for teaching astrology--I mean, ID.
I would never have expected the Religious Right to be so strong in Florida, but then I remembered Jeb Bush!
I wonder if the religious right will ever evolve beyond Biblical Literalism and stifling of scientific enquiry?
BTW Archer....I notice you don't come around as much. Some of us spend half our time hanging out at a new forum.
If I don't see you here I'll see you there.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4982 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 10 of 24 (463066)
04-11-2008 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archer Opteryx
02-18-2008 3:58 AM


mythology
Teaching the present generation's mythology has always been important.....why should it be any different with ToE compared to say, Zeus?

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2189 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 11 of 24 (463095)
04-12-2008 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by randman
04-11-2008 7:49 PM


Re: mythology
Teaching the present generation's mythology has always been important.....why should it be any different with ToE compared to say, Zeus?
Because there's evidence for ToE.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4982 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 12 of 24 (463099)
04-12-2008 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Coyote
04-12-2008 12:12 AM


Re: mythology
Hmmm....there is always evidence, at least in men's minds, for the things they believe.

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Replies to this message:
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Rrhain
Member (Idle past 90 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 13 of 24 (463110)
04-12-2008 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by randman
04-12-2008 1:53 AM


Re: mythology
randman writes:
quote:
there is always evidence, at least in men's minds, for the things they believe.
That's the beauty of science: You don't have to believe. In fact, it's better if you don't. Instead, you need to get into the lab and try it for yourself. We'd love to be able to see what you come up with.
And if you prove us all wrong, we'll give you the Nobel Prize.
What are you waiting for?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Admin
Director
Posts: 13082
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 14 of 24 (463114)
04-12-2008 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by randman
04-12-2008 1:53 AM


Topic Reminder
randman writes:
Hmmm....there is always evidence, at least in men's minds, for the things they believe.
This is a corollary of your, "If you were being honest..." argument. When neither side recognizes the inherent fallacy in such arguments then you get exchanges like this:
  • "You're not being honest." "No, you're not being honest."
  • "You're not a true Christian." "No, you're the one who's not a true Christian."
  • "You're just finding reasons for what you want to believe anyway." "No, it's you who's seeking post facto confirmation."
Pretty pointless.
Rather than accusing the other side of foibles to which you, also being of the human race, are equally vulnerable, you might consider exploring the principles that should underlie the establishment of science standards for public schools. It might not only be productive, it would even be on-topic!
Please, no replies.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Straggler
Member (Idle past 149 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 15 of 24 (463227)
04-13-2008 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by randman
04-12-2008 1:53 AM


Re: mythology
Where science differs is rather than simply interpreting evidence, with all the errors and potential philosopical bias that this allows, conclusions are tested against nature by means of prediction and verification. Thus objectivity and reliability of conclusions are maximised.
ID does not incorporate this essential step. It is merely untestable interpretation of physical evidence drawn from a very obviously biased predetermined religious position.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

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