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Author | Topic: Heat Calculations for Post-Flood Plate Movements | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
obvious Child Member (Idle past 4136 days) Posts: 661 Joined: |
So I'm arguing aganist a particularly ignorant creationist who believes that moutains (such as Everest) were created after the flood (therefore removing the ridiculous amount of needed water).
However, what he either doesn't understand or chooses to ignore is that compacting Everest into 6,000 or so years would require ridiculous plate movements. I've calculated from sea level that plate movement would need to be around 5 (60 inches) feet a year to raise Everest to its current height over 6,000 years. What I don't have down is the corrolating heat from such plate movement. Plates as we know move about a inch a year the mantle is estimed to be around 1120 C. So it would seem logical to me that a increase in plate movement requires a increase in mantle temperature. How much temperature increase would be required for a increase from 1 inch to 60 inches in plate movement in the mantle? I've done a rough 1 inch = 1120 and 60 inch = x but that seems like a bad estimate given that the temperature is something like 66,200 C. Can anyone help me out here?
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 755 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
I think it'll be a pretty tricky thing to calculate, as the possible speed of motion may well depend largely on the viscosity of the molten rock down there where the plates are doing their thing. My bet would be that even a fifty degree C change in temperature could make a huge difference in viscosity up near the melting point of the rocks in question. It certainly won't be a linear relation.
Even calculating the frictional heat generated by plate motion would be equally tricky, as you don't have a good number for the coefficient of friction as a function of temperature or viscosity. But don't give him all 6000 years for his plate motion to take place - the people in India would have noticed all those earthquakes back 4000 years ago, when they were already keeping written records.
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Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
The front-running creationist theory of rapid plate tectonics is Baumgardner's 'Catastrophic Plate Tectonics'. He's a PhDed geophysicist who developed a mainstream plate tectonics simulation engine while at Los Alamos and has claimed that it can shift into a rapid mode that would break-up Pangea during the Flood:
Global Flood - Home Of Global Flood The point for you is that rapid uplifts go hand in hand with rapid plate tectonics. BTW, like your 'ignorant' creationist friend, I also personally believe Pangea-break-up occurred more slowly than Baumgardner, post-Flood between Noah and Babel over a period of 340 years.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 857 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Such calculations, as Coragyps pointed out would be difficult to model at best. However, large masses, such as continents, do not simply start and stop at whim according to physics.
Only according to the laws of Last Thursdayism, where anything goes. Here are a few temperature-related problems concerning runaway plate tectonics. From: http://home.entouch.net/dmd/subduction.htm
quote: It is important to note it would also take a considerable amount of time to get runaway subduction to slow down to almost a stop, as we observe now and have in the recent past. There is also a problem with the temperature and ocean profile such runaway subduction would create. From THE DEPTHS OF THE OCEANS :
quote: The idea the continents moved super-fast at a recent point in time, then magically slowed to present rates also completely violates virtually all known measurements in paleomagnetism. To my knowledge, there is no evidence from geology of any superfast continental "drift" anywhere on Earth. If there is such evidence, please feel free to name the geologic formation, the reasoning why it indicates such activity occurred, and its exact location. Like Coragyps, I also find it strange the Egyptians, Sumerians, the people of the Indus Valley Civilization, Chinese, and Australian Aborigenes, or for that matter any civilization, who have written and/or oral records dating from the time didn't seem to take notice of these runaway continents. I personally know several people that work at LASL, none are as lacking in integrity or as hungry for publicity as Baumgardner appears to be in his sacrifice of one for the other. Edited by anglagard, : Credit to Coragyps for previous post and clarity.
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obvious Child Member (Idle past 4136 days) Posts: 661 Joined: |
Besides the fact that anglagard proved runaway subduction is a load of crap, Baumgarder himself has admitted his argument doesn't work without miracles.
quote: CH430: Runaway subduction
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RickJB Member (Idle past 5011 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Anglagard writes: Like Coragyps, I also find it strange the Egyptians, Sumerians, the people of the Indus Valley Civilization, Chinese, and Australian Aborigenes, or for that matter any civilization, who have written and/or oral records dating from the time didn't seem to take notice of these runaway continents. Given that the Egyptians relied on the annual flooding of the Nile for over three thousand years it would certainly take a miracle for the river to maintain both its course and behavior if entire continents were moving as such rates.
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RickJB Member (Idle past 5011 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Tranquility writes: The point for you is that rapid uplifts go hand in hand with rapid plate tectonics. The point for you is that ridiculous scientific claims go hand in hand with ridiculous religious beliefs.
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Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
In a post-Flood Mesozoic scenario the subduction rates are 350 times lower so we have much less of an initiation problem and heating problem.
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Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
In a post-Flood Mesozoic model we have catastrophic plate tectonics stopping around 2300BC and with e.g. Rohl's (a 'non-fundamentalist') new Egyptian chronology of overlapping dynasties we can have Egypt being settled post-catastrophic tectonics.
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Archer Opteryx Member (Idle past 3618 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
Tranquility Base: In a post-Flood Mesozoic model we have catastrophic plate tectonics stopping around 2300BC With the resulting tsunamis sloshing around only until the time of Columbus. Of course. You still have to wonder how the ancient Micronesians managed to settle the islands of the Asia-Pacific Rim circa 4000 BCE. They were already building villages on the island of Taiwan by that time. How exactly does one plant crops on an island that's still at the bottom of the ocean, waiting for the subduction process to raise it? The Micronesians were impressive ocean explorers but now their feats loom larger than ever. Imagine the challenge they faced, navigating between islands that popped up and down like corks as sea levels bounced around, harbors vanished as rapidly as they appeared, and every coastline warped and compressed and stretched itself like taffy. And they would have to beware of India barreling through, on its way to that spectacular crash with Asia... ____ (Reality check: this thread)____ Edited by Archer Opterix, : URL. Archer All species are transitional.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Can you provide a reference which supports your claim about Rohl ? Everything I have found indicates that Rohl only removes 300 years from the chronology which places your "end point" during the 3rd Dynasty. And Rohl's chronology is almost entirely rejected by the experts because of the facts that it doesn't fit with.
And do you really think that a factor of 350 is enough ? You still require a very fast rate. Come to that, what adjustments do you have to make to Baumgardner's assumptions to get the "runaway" effect to stop at the lower rate ? And there's still plenty of other evidence that causes problems.
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RickJB Member (Idle past 5011 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: |
Tranquility writes: In a post-Flood Mesozoic model we have catastrophic plate tectonics stopping around 2300BC and with e.g. Rohl's (a 'non-fundamentalist') new Egyptian chronology of overlapping dynasties we can have Egypt being settled post-catastrophic tectonics. As far as I'm aware Rohl's new chronology moves all events prior to sacking of Thebes in 664 B.C. forward by around 350 years. Either way, Egyptian civilisation would still have already been over 2000 years old! Not much help for your argument there.... Edited by RickJB, : No reason given. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
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Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
C14 is partially calibrated and due to (i) the errors in Egyptology and (ii) effects of acclerated decay on C14 we believe that most human civilization events 4000BC-2500BC can be compressed into 2500BC-2000BC.
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Tranquility Base Inactive Member |
A few years ago I summarised Rohl as:
STANDARD: Old K (2650-2150BC), Middle K (2050-1700BC), New K (1550-1100BC)REVISED: Old K (2100-1600BC), Middle K (1750-1450BC), New K (1050-600BC) so in the end it becomes a 550 year correction. The supporting refs MAY be here: http://EvC Forum: David Rohl's Research (Re: 'A Test Of Time', re: Egyptian chronology) -->EvC Forum: David Rohl's Research (Re: 'A Test Of Time', re: Egyptian chronology) Most summaries only look at his Middle-New Kingdom stuff. In any case once one goes pre-start Old Kingdom you're purely on C14.
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