Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Guilty feelings.
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 1 of 46 (462486)
04-04-2008 5:18 AM


Most people feel guilt when they have done something 'bad' (a fuzzy definition I know).
What is 'guilt'? Is it a form of cognitive self flagellation or from an external source telling us something?
Edited by Larni, : Stupid spelling mistakes.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Stile, posted 04-04-2008 10:21 AM Larni has replied

  
Shield
Member (Idle past 2863 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 2 of 46 (462497)
04-04-2008 8:49 AM


But if this external source is telling us something... what external source, external from the other external source, is telling the external source something?
And why didnt this external source tell Hitler "something" before he killed those jews? External source dosent like jews?
Comment on my own post: Yea, i know, bringing hitler into discussions is never a good idea, but in this case i am, since im guessing the op is looking for some GodDidIt answer, and probably ChristianGodDidIt.
Edited by rbp, : Added content

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 12:13 PM Shield has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 3 of 46 (462503)
04-04-2008 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Larni
04-04-2008 5:18 AM


Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
Larni writes:
What is 'guilt'?
I think guilt is my personal acknowledgement that I've done something I understand to be wrong.
Sometimes I'll do something, feel it was normal, then gain information, and later feel guilty. I only feel guilty once I gain the knowledge that what I did was wrong.
Is it a form of cognitive self flagellation or from an external source telling us something?
Yes, in not-so-many-words "a form of cognitive self flagellation". Although, I'm not up-to-speed on human biology in this matter. Does it not extend beyond cognitive? It doesn't release any endorphines or block receptors or something like that? I'm actually asking, I don't really know. Is it entirely cognitive? Or are some other physical parts of the body involved?
An external source telling us something?
Well, I really can't prove it isn't. However, I can show that it doesn't need to be. I do something I understand to be wrong, I feel guilty. That does not require an external source. Since the explanation is not required, I'll only give it credence if someone can educate me as to how it actually is required (if that's even possible).
(PS - You may want to consider editing the spelling of your thread title)
Edited by Stile, : Considered editing the spelling of my own words

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 5:18 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 12:18 PM Stile has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 4 of 46 (462506)
04-04-2008 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Shield
04-04-2008 8:49 AM


I introduced an external source because many people do see guilt as stemming from a god.
If a guilty conscience is from a god your point is very well taken. But if guilt is not from a god what is it for?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Shield, posted 04-04-2008 8:49 AM Shield has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Dr Jack, posted 04-04-2008 12:33 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 5 of 46 (462508)
04-04-2008 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Stile
04-04-2008 10:21 AM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
Stile writes:
It doesn't release any endorphines or block receptors or something like that?
I reckon you you need to recognise the 'badness' of the behaviour before you conclude that you have done something wrong. I would say this is cognitive rather than psysical.
When one 'feels' guilt I would assert it is pure rumination of past deads rather than a physical reaction.
Good catch on guitly! D'oh!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Stile, posted 04-04-2008 10:21 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 12:21 PM Larni has replied
 Message 10 by Stile, posted 04-04-2008 1:33 PM Larni has not replied
 Message 35 by Son Goku, posted 04-07-2008 10:30 AM Larni has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 6 of 46 (462509)
04-04-2008 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Larni
04-04-2008 12:18 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
I would say this is cognitive rather than psysical.
Cognitive is physical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 12:18 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 1:16 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 7 of 46 (462511)
04-04-2008 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Larni
04-04-2008 12:13 PM


It's negative reinforcement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 12:13 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 1:19 PM Dr Jack has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 8 of 46 (462514)
04-04-2008 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by molbiogirl
04-04-2008 12:21 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
molbiogirl writes:
Cognitive is physical.
Explain how.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 12:21 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 2:37 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 9 of 46 (462515)
04-04-2008 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dr Jack
04-04-2008 12:33 PM


Mr Jack writes:
negative reinforcement
So you do something wrong and what positive stimulus gets removed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Dr Jack, posted 04-04-2008 12:33 PM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Dr Jack, posted 04-04-2008 1:55 PM Larni has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 10 of 46 (462516)
04-04-2008 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Larni
04-04-2008 12:18 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
Larni writes:
I reckon you you need to recognise the 'badness' of the behaviour before you conclude that you have done something wrong.
Yes, that's what I meant to try to convey by using the term "understand".
In understanding that I've done something wrong, I first need my own standard of what is actually 'wrong'. Then I can understand the "badness" when I compare what I did to my own standard. I don't think it matters what this standard actually is, though (as far as this thread's concerned, anyway).
I would say this is cognitive rather than psysical.
I have no argument either way on this point I really was just asking, I have no clue.
But, if you are stating so "in your educated opinion" (since I think your education in this area is extensive), then I certainly accept this as the likely description. Pending further study, of course.
Am I wrong in assuming that studying "guilt" is rather new in the field, as is the study of "forgiveness"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 12:18 PM Larni has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 11 of 46 (462519)
04-04-2008 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Larni
04-04-2008 1:19 PM


My bad. I bungled my terminology. Positive punishment, apparently, is the right term.
Edited by Mr Jack, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 1:19 PM Larni has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Dr Jack, posted 04-04-2008 1:58 PM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 12 of 46 (462520)
04-04-2008 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Dr Jack
04-04-2008 1:55 PM


Although, come to think, of it. Negative reinforcement probably also comes into it, as you can relieve guilt by making things right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Dr Jack, posted 04-04-2008 1:55 PM Dr Jack has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 2:45 PM Dr Jack has replied

  
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 13 of 46 (462523)
04-04-2008 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Larni
04-04-2008 1:16 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
Explain how.
Seriously?
You doubt that your cognitive functions are the result of physical processes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 1:16 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Larni, posted 04-04-2008 2:42 PM molbiogirl has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 14 of 46 (462524)
04-04-2008 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by molbiogirl
04-04-2008 2:37 PM


Re: Guilt = understanding a missed oportunity to do better
As I said: explain how, please.
Unless you are agueing that you need a physical substrate for cognition; in which case you are right.
But if you mean physical in as much as anxiety is expressed in a physical reaction then I would again ask you to justify your response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 2:37 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by molbiogirl, posted 04-04-2008 3:02 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 15 of 46 (462525)
04-04-2008 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dr Jack
04-04-2008 1:58 PM


Mr Jack writes:
as you can relieve guilt by making things right
Hmm. Don't think I can argue with that.
However, isn't this a reaction to a previous expression of guilt?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Dr Jack, posted 04-04-2008 1:58 PM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Dr Jack, posted 04-06-2008 3:10 PM Larni has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024